Hi everyone, I have Lee Doran from William Russell with me. As the International Underwriting Manager Lee has an incredible knowledge of how protection insurance works across the UK and the rest of the world. With 20 years experience as an underwriter, he has seen and heard pretty much everything.
In this episode we talk about Ukraine, Russia, the US and how getting insurance isn’t the easiest thing to do. Lee takes us through how international insurance can make things far simpler for clients who move countries, if they need to make a claim. We also take you through some key points about admitted, non-admitted, group and individual protection.
The key takeaways:
- International protection insurance options change quickly depending upon the health, social, political, financial and environmental situations of a country.
- There are some countries where you will simply not be able to arrange protection insurance for if you plan to travel or live there. There can be super specialist options, but it is pretty much guaranteed that the policy will exclude claims that happen in the sanctioned/restricted country.
- A case study looking at quite a straightforward international client requirement, and another case study of a more complex situation.
Next time Alan is going to be back with me and we are going to be talking about underwriting updates for cigarettes and alcohol.
Remember, if you are listening to this as part of your work, you can claim a CPD certificate on our website, thanks to our sponsors NextGen Planners.
Kathryn Knowles 00:10
Hi everyone. We’re on season 10, Episode Seven, and we have Lee Darwin from William Russell with me. He is the International underwriting manager. Hi Lee, hello. Today, we’re going to be talking about international protection. This is the practical protection podcast.
Kathryn Knowles 00:37
So Lee, how are you doing? What’s happening with you at the moment?
Lee Doran 00:42
Really well. Thank you. Kathryn, busy as always. Lots going on, launching new products, training new staff. Get ready for Easter. Lots of jock. I was going to say absolutely.
Kathryn Knowles 00:56
And I was going to say just, just launching products, training, new stuff, just small things, you know, clearly not stuff that’s like, manically intense and busy. It’s
Lee Doran 01:06
definitely looking forward to an Easter break. Oh, absolutely.
Kathryn Knowles 01:09
Are you? Are you getting a nice break? Are you getting away anywhere? Are you just staying home and just recovering, just
Lee Doran 01:16
recovering this Easter, just a little bit of downtime will be nice. That
Kathryn Knowles 01:20
will be really, really lovely. I have one week where we’re going away, we’re going to go to center parks, and then I’ve got a week to recover. And I say a week to recover because it’s a week to recover whilst I have the three children at home and I’m working, no, no. And actually it’s kind of one of those things as well. I kind of think about in terms of holidays. When have I had a relaxing holiday since having the kids? And I’m assuming everybody’s the same, okay, so it just doesn’t happen, does it? It is so intense. And you kind of I remember those days of going on holiday with my parents and just thinking, I’d be lovely to just have another adult that and just do it, just to
Lee Doran 01:56
share a little bit more. No, I completely get that I’ve got three kids, and there’s no downtime on family holidays. It’s not and they
Kathryn Knowles 02:05
outnumber you. Nobody explains that when you have three, they’re just, can you have two? And, you know, you potentially think, oh, you know, this is so lovely. I have I’ve always wanted three kids, and it was a case of blah blah. They actually do really outnumber us, and the younger two. I always say, a bartering on feral. So it just doesn’t, it’s it just is so intense. But anyway, we’ll get into we’ll get into everything. So we’re going to be talking about international protection, exactly what you’re doing, exactly what you’re underwriting, and looking at, I’ve said to you before we started this, my team are very, very excited about hearing all the ins and outs of this, because we do quite a bit in the international space. So just to start off with, because obviously we’ll have a complete range of people listening to this. We’ll have insurers, we’ll have brokers, we’ll have consumers who are just wondering, sort of like, what they can potentially do. So if we start off with, when writing protection internationally, how does that how is that different? To say, writing a policy within the UK,
Lee Doran 03:06
it’s a it’s different I’ve done both for providers in the UK and obviously International. And it can be a lot more interesting internationally. You do see a lot of people living the best lives, doing lots of fantastic, sort of different occupations and going to lots of fantastic places. But it doesn’t mean it has to be any more difficult. William Russell, we particularly focus on expats, international, mobile individuals. By that I mean people outside the country, nationality, looking for protection, cover, whether residing in a different country, or whether traveling around the world, expect so most your listeners will understand that the products that UK providers offer, normally based on being a UK resident, no intention of moving abroad or extended trips, and quite often, you need a UK bank account. So if you’re going through the online application journey or a paper application form. It’s usually one of the first questions you got to answer, or maybe in a disclaimer, initial statement at the start. So for those types of plans, if someone’s going abroad, regular or having extended periods of travel, so more than a month, any areas that insurers might consider to be higher risk in the UK, then the cover might be declined, the premium might be increased. And also, if you’re outside the UK, when you apply, whether you’re digital nomad internationally traveling, you might have difficulty meeting those requirements for a UK product. You might not been in the UK for the right amount of time. If they’re infrequent, or they’re short or similar sort of countries to the UK, maybe Europe. Health Risks are the same, crime, terrorism risks, some UK products might still be suitable. I’d always say, check with your provider. Absolutely always, always check with your provider. But many UK plans can take. Clauses limits that restrict payments. I know you’re familiar with income protection, so if you claim for protection, you go abroad. Most companies in the UK will have a list of countries where they will accept sort of ongoing monitoring from, or they may require you to return to the UK after, say, six months, just so they can make sure it’s a valid claim and ready to continue, similar with terminal illness or critical illness, some UK providers will only accept diagnoses or doctors letters from maybe a particular region or particular area. If the cover is limited to UK permanent residents, I think, said before most plans are going to cover you if you die on holiday, if you go on a short break, but if you’re regularly going away from the UK for longer periods, you don’t know when you’re coming back. Some providers might offer you a continuation of cover, but it might depend on what you’re doing, where you’re going, how long you think you’ll be there. Who not told you? Ensure it might invalidate your cover. Yeah, always check with your insurer. It’s a UK plan that you’re going to be covered if you’re going abroad, yeah, I’d say the biggest difference is claiming. Yeah, yeah. If you’re dealing with a UK based provider and you’ve got a claim for somebody overseas. Yeah, they’ll be able to handle your claim. But if you’ve got an international provider, that’s all we do day in, day out, speaking to clinics, hospitals around the world, medical evacuations. That’s, that’s our bread and butter. That’s, that’s what we do every day. It’s not a it’s not an anomaly. Yes, it’s, it’s Tuesday. Well,
Kathryn Knowles 06:42
that’s Tuesday.
Lee Doran 06:43
That’s what we do day in day out. So we just geared up for it. We’ve got the connections around the world with the hospitals and the evacuation companies to make sure we can support our clients.
Kathryn Knowles 06:53
Yeah, certainly something that you know that stands out, because when we’re doing obviously, a lot of the policies in UK. So we do do quite a bit of international cover, but the majority of our policies are UK based. And like you say, it’s, it’s always about the claim. So for anybody who’s not too familiar, to select with critical illness, cover, like you were saying, Lee, you know, it might be that this person sets up this policy and they had no intention of being going abroad anywhere, but it’s maybe eight years down the line, they actually are moving abroad. And you know the insurance says where you can keep your policy if you keep paying it from a UK bank account and things like that. However, if you go to live in this country, you’re actually going to have to go to one of this list of countries to be able for us to even consider the claim. And people probably don’t recognize that. I would say, though the majority of people, I think, just assume, if you were to move out of the UK, that your policy is automatically invalid, rather than knowing that it can potentially carry on, which is always interesting. And from what you said, as of the income protection side of things is, I think, a really interesting area for this space, especially in the international side, because of the amount of times you see people now where I think it’s it’s much more often now that people would potentially go abroad, and maybe for a few years, go abroad, or they might do a sabbatical, or something like that, at which point we can have real issues on the income protection side, if it’s UK based, because, again, you Need to check with the provider, but you can sometimes find that they might turn and say, well, actually, the policy is just not valid, because our rules are, you must be UK tax residents. You’re not going to be here for this. And so the policy just has to immediately stop. And some of them can, you know, you say, can potentially, but you know, it’s just generally, the guidance is that you would just have to stop it. So I think you know, in terms of when you’re speaking with people, if you if there’s any kind of part of their job that you kind of think the very nature of it, or the things they’re saying, or that they might go abroad at some point, especially in the IP side, it’s certainly worthwhile looking at somebody like yourselves, where there is that international aspect already there. Yeah, it’s
Lee Doran 08:59
definitely worth thinking about. I think you touched it. Then you can speak to your provider, and you provide your UK based provider might say it’s fine to keep the cover, and you can be paying from a UK bank account and you keep it. But what we don’t often think about is that point of claim. So let’s say somebody’s in a a country that wouldn’t be accepted by a UK provider for a diagnosis, either for IP or critical illness. That person is now quite ill, but to get paid or to continue an IP claim that you have to travel to a different country Now, depending on the providers list, that may or may not be close, and if it’s IP that might be repeated trips, so you might be going every six months to somewhere to come back again. So it’s something that definitely worth thinking about. So it’s not just being able to continue. It’s what actually happens if I need to use it, because it’s totally there for it’s the peace of mind, absolutely. And I was going to
Kathryn Knowles 09:48
say it’s just something else that just popped into my mind as well, is that, you know, depending upon what’s happening. And this is also just relevant anyway, in a sense, even if we weren’t doing international we sometimes see this on the if we’re doing, like, a line. Insurance policy for someone in the UK and but their beneficiaries outside the UK, you know, there’s got to be those disclaimers as well from yourself as an advisor, about the fact of you know, well, we can do this. And like, obviously, again, it would probably apply for the critical illness covering somewhere. I suppose that we can do this. We can apply this. You can do this. You can do that. However, we can’t guarantee what that money is going to look like once it reaches you in that country that you’re in. Obviously different for what you’re doing in the international space, but with other providers, where they are UK based ones, it’s and I think I know we might talk a little bit about the states at some point, but you know, there’s this big thing in the advisor world of you know, so do not advise anybody who’s in the United States or in Canada, because there’s so many things and all this stuff. But again, it’s like, even if you have a beneficiary somewhere like that, you have to say, Tom, well, look, you know, you live in the UK, we’re insuring you for 250,000 with a UK insurer, but your beneficiaries in the US, we can’t guarantee they’re going to get 250 K’s worth of money at the end of it, because it’s passing international money, you know, across all these different institutions. So you do need to be so, so careful. I think that really comes into play as well with what you’re with. What you’re saying is the fact that, you know, you can do these things potentially, but if you’ve got something already there that’s International, it just, it’s probably just going to be smoother all the way along in the longer scheme of things, that’s
Lee Doran 11:25
- That’s it. It’s just, for me, it’s it’s trying to get more certainty at the point you’re going to need it. It’s fantastic. Insurers let you keep the policy and keep paying, and in most cases, it’s fine. But the bit that worries me. If somebody’s abroad and they get sick, yeah, you want them moving about and like, say, just having the certainty there and adding the certainty of what might be paid out to a beneficiary. I always say, if people are setting up beneficiaries, make sure they know,
Kathryn Knowles 11:55
yes, absolutely. Make sure the beneficiaries
Lee Doran 11:57
are aware of it. Yeah, that’s one thing that I’ve come across at different organizations where beneficiaries just aren’t aware. Yeah,
Kathryn Knowles 12:06
well, we do. We try and obviously do that as much as possible. You know, say to them, just make sure that they know, because if something happens, they’re going to need to get in touch with me. That kind of thing for me to help them. And the other thing I just think pops in my mind then as well, is just simply, even though it might, it’s just another thing that can be difficult, isn’t it getting because we sometimes have to get documents translated from different things, you know, I’ve had clients where they’ve had five years worth of medical records in Germany. So we’ve had to have all the German translated. And then potentially people who’ve come over from Poland, you know, and getting all that translated. And it’s there’s not always that availability in a UK insurer to have that kind of translation, if then sometimes you can say, Well, look, can you speak to your reinsurance? Your reinsurer is based in this country, so somebody there who speaks the language and can translate this. But I imagine for yourselves that you probably have every everyone doing every kind of language going every
Lee Doran 13:03
day. We get reports in any language you can imagine, on a sort of daily and weekly basis. But the point you made then about speaking, getting the insurers to speak, to the reassurance, to support, that’s fantastic. I’ve done that before at previous it really does help, especially where you’ve got large document, you you need somebody not who can speak the language, but, but Knowles the interests of the maybe those terms or or different Exactly, yeah, some things can get lost quite easily. I mean, if you’ve got somebody who can speak five languages translate, it’s not the same as a as a natural speaker who can do it, not just the the availability. I mean, we get them in pretty much any language you can imagine translating them the difference in tests and investigations and the point at which they test and investigate. I mean, even basic things like mammograms in some countries are from age five in every year. So if you were to get a medical report in the UK, and you saw that, you’d be thinking, Is there a problem? Exactly? Is there a family history? And you’d be aware of but being aware that in some countries that’s the norm, you might underwrite that case to a different case. That’s
Kathryn Knowles 14:14
so true. Actually, my sister lives in Italy, and you know, she hers is completely different timings as to what I would get here in the UK, but like you say, that would be kind of like you’d ultimately thinking, hang on, you know, what’s what’s going on, you know? Or Did something come up and they’ve, like, been just extra checking, but it’s not been anything like, you know, alarm bells going, but just so, yeah, that’s a really, really good point. So I also, I got distracted then thinking about my niece, because my niece is bilingual, so she speaks English and Italian fluently, but she’s also learning Romanian and French. And I’m thinking, right, that’s it. I’m I’m figuring out now where she could go international insurer and translating the documents Exactly.
Lee Doran 14:52
I’m getting all set out always use more people who can speak more languages. Oh, absolutely, I’m
Kathryn Knowles 14:57
sorry for somehow, I’m kind of like paving away from my. Children and my nieces now to just be insurance somewhere. I think eldest is going to be an actuary, I think. But yeah, anyway. So I think he very much liked the idea of being an actuary when him, yeah. So potentially the income levels everyone in his year group now is just like, hang on a minute. So we’ve got an entire school that year in the Yorkshire are planning on being actuaries becoming
Lee Doran 15:25
more common. My middle one’s the same a lot of her year group, and they’re sort of year 12. They are I can, I can remember being year 12 and not really in the understanding what insurance was, and not even thinking about passing, absolutely being an actuary or an underwriter, but it’s all they want to do. Now
Kathryn Knowles 15:43
I was going to say, in year 12, my my focus, I have to say, was probably which night club. Yes, Rich Club. It was very much. It used to go to the black lion. That was the pub, before the before the mosh pit club.
Lee Doran 16:01
This is why all the pubs and clubs are shooting. We’ve cracked it all these actuaries. So
Kathryn Knowles 16:10
brilliant, absolutely amazing. Okay, then, so, you see, I told you we’re taking on tangents. We’re talking about night club and actuaries, right? Very nature of international cover, obviously, is that there are differences in health, like we just mentioned there, even about the health systems. That’s how often you do things, how often you can access things. The political and social systems as well, all have massive influences and come into play when it goes into underwriting. So I think it’ll be quite interesting. Is kind of, how is the world looking at the moment. And this is Easter 2025, so just being very clear to anybody listening, especially because we have people listening to ones from years ago, this is based upon this time right now. And obviously these things change quite quickly, or can change quite quickly. So you can’t hold us to anything we say right at this moment.
Lee Doran 17:01
That’s a nice carry I was going to ask, How long have we got to cover this? Because the world seems a very uncertain place at the minute. I mean, we’ve got wars in Europe. We’ve got wars in the east, the health and
Kathryn Knowles 17:13
then everywhere has been in the US, hasn’t it? There’s suddenly the US that there’s so many, you know, except the UK itself, that’s we’ve got thingies now, haven’t we? I think these are, like, at least 12 countries where we’ve all gone, do not travel to the US. I mean, that’s just, it’s just so bizarre.
Lee Doran 17:29
It’s not even changing on a daily basis. I mean, it’s almost hourly, right? I mean, we woke up to a very different financial picture across the world this morning. Yes, absolutely. But yeah, financial changes, climate change. It was an earthquake in Miramar. Yes. Earlier this week, health systems are still struggling from the pandemic. Yeah. I mean, you touched on the political changes in the States. I mean, it’s, I think it’s going to affect everywhere. I think everywhere is doing that little bit in certain we’ll see that in the financial pressures people are going to face in the coming months and years, one thing we probably need to just draw attention to is protection policies. When people start to feel the pinch financially, it is one of the first things they think about, podcasting. Pay the mortgage, pay the gas, pay the electric. What can they get rid of? Just a reminder to everybody out there, just be aware that it is important, absolutely, if things getting tough, it is time. I think, well, what happens if the worst happens?
Kathryn Knowles 18:35
Yeah, and I think as well, just to it’s always important to remind people, you know, you know, they, if people want to cancel, they can cancel, you know, obviously, especially in terms of, like, your protection policies. And they aren’t things where you are tied into them. If you are tied into something, then it’s, it’s not what you know. It might be that someone’s tied you in in terms of their servicing or advice, but not in terms of the actual insurance product and but it’s the whole thing of, if you can, can sit now you can set it back up. That’s absolutely you can do that. But just bear in mind this, when you set it back up, you will be older, so it will be more expensive. If your health has changed at all since you originally took the original policy out, that could be a huge, huge bearing upon what you can get, anything from, it could be absolutely fine and everything’s the same, white food to being declined, or potentially exclusions on the policies it’s it can be so, so different. So, like you’re saying, there they if you are looking at counseling and protection, it is a good idea to get advice. And also, just even if it’s advised to sort of say, right, okay, well, you’ve got this, let’s say somebody’s got 500,000 pounds of cover, and it might be because of, right? Well, instead of canceling what was, if we drop it to 300,000 what does that cost look like to you? Is it? You know, at least then you’ve not got nothing. Because ultimately, when you take these policies out, it’s all because, I always think it’s all because you love someone. Thing, it’s you love your family, so you want to look after them. You love yourself, so you want to make sure that you’re okay if something bad happens to you. And that concern that you had at the very beginning probably hasn’t disappeared. And so it’s just trying to see, is there any way of trying to keep it at a sensible price, and things like that, but, uh, but again, just got a little bit of side tangent there for the advisors, there’s some extra tips, but all
Lee Doran 20:23
valid point, think about your options. People about what they can do potentially with the policies before thinking about canceling them, absolutely.
Kathryn Knowles 20:31
So I mean in terms of, like, what’s going on. So we’ve got things like you were saying about medical evacuation and things like that. And I think I’ve spoken so I’ve seen things in this area before us, but there’s, there’s possibly, say, like places in Africa where this sometimes has to be medically evacuated. Amy, I suppose it happens anywhere, but that there’s, like, really specific rules and things, and it’s not particularly easy.
Lee Doran 20:55
Depends on the situation and where it is for an evacuation. We will always, always endeavor to get anybody evacuated as best we can. Obviously, in certain situations, that can become more more problematic. I’m thinking about maybe our members in Ukraine over the last few years. Obviously, it’s not safe for us to operate flights into Ukraine most of the time, so to evacuate people so where possible, they will look at sort of doing things by road, but they will, we will always try where we can, to get in and support people. I think that’s that’s one of the differences that does set us apart when the Israel and Gaza situation happened, for example, yes, we do the emails, we do the blogs, like all insurers do, but we actually had everybody in the business on the phone, speaking to all our members in Gaza and Israel and helping them understand what their policies covered when he wouldn’t give coverage, on whether the complications could be if they were unable to Get evacuated, just so they understood the coverage, yeah, which is, which is important, but it is that sort of personal touch in the ability to go out and speak to everybody, absolutely, which does put us, I think, differences on some of the mainstream insurers, which would just be a mail shot or an email update, because perhaps the portfolio is much bigger and you might not be able to speak to speak to 10,000 Yeah, but yeah, just just attempting it, and literally getting everybody in the business on the phone to, so, yeah, in contact and speak to these people.
Kathryn Knowles 22:32
Well, that’s, that’s brilliant, that you can do that. So, I mean, you’re just mentioning, I think, somewhere then, so obviously somewhere that we do get asked about at times, especially cure with us being the place that people go to when they’ve kind of exhausted our options, places like Ukraine, mucha, it’s just not going to happen at the moment. Is it the insurance not at the minute.
Lee Doran 22:52
I mean, conflicts happen quite often around the world. So I mean, if there is a current conflict ongoing, we will, we will close the doors to new business for for a moment, we’ll pause our new business activity. We don’t cancel people’s insurance, and we do allow them to renew, so if they get to the end of the year, they can renew, obviously subject to any sanctions that that that might change. But where we can, we we try and enable everybody to keep the cover that they’ve got. We may have to pause offering new clients cover, yeah. But obviously, when we do that, we keep it on the constant review. So we can, we can lift that restriction when it’s sensible to do so Absolutely.
Kathryn Knowles 23:29
Is there any else, obviously, I’ve now just mentioned Ukraine, Russia. Are there any other areas that would be that sort of stand out as a, you know, this is a, this is somewhere right, like right at this moment that it wouldn’t be possible. I mean, obviously we say in Israel, I imagine would also be a no. Is there anywhere else that would be kind of regular that stands out
Lee Doran 23:51
these some countries, which might be fairly obvious to some of your listeners, places like Cuba, Iran, North Korea, spring to mind. They’re more sanctioned countries, which is why we can’t operate there Switzerland. And I think you mentioned the US, yeah, there to areas where we don’t offer cover. People are resonating in those countries. That’s mainly due to regulation and the requirements in those countries.
Kathryn Knowles 24:18
Because, I think because, again, the US. I say that’s often stands out, especially, you know, Wealth Advisors, lots of people do move to the US. So am I right in thinking that one of the big difficulties in the US is obviously, again, you just don’t know what’s going to happen in terms of money getting into the US, but that each state has its own rules. So it’s not even like you’re just talking about the US, you’re talking about Wisconsin, in the US, and the rules that they’re under, and what’s governing them at that moment. And is that right?
Lee Doran 24:49
That’s spot on. It’s incredibly complex. So you’ve got the federal requirements, but then you’ve got all the individual state requirements, like say, so that’s potentially 50 sets of rules to comply. With. So, yeah, foreign insurers wanting to sell into the US gotta be authorized in each state where you wish for policy, and really strict prohibition on sort of operating without a license. So you’ve got to comply with the federal rules, all the different state rules, but then you’ve also got to be prepared for people moving across different states. All the different tax implications of US citizens, even sometimes when US citizens go outside the US can make it really complex. Most international providers will cover everywhere else in the world, or a majority everywhere else, apart from the States, because it is just an absolute minefield. And we’ve, we’ve seen this week, the rules change quite quickly. Yeah, so you may have 50 real books, and you may have found a compliance solution on a Tuesday, but by the time you get to Thursday, it might not still be compliant. And that’s, that’s so big, that’s but with 50 different rule books for I was going
Kathryn Knowles 25:59
to say, the resources for that would be, yeah, huge.
Lee Doran 26:03
Would be immense. And obviously it’s, it’s a very well served market locally. There’s a lot, yeah, a lot of insurers already in the state. So the competition and the requirement to get in meet all the rules, and then the market share probably isn’t there for a lot of the International insurers anyway, because the local insurers already sucked it up and, yeah, meet all the other requirements. A lot of the US insurers also have the doctors, the hospitals, or with it within their their overall parent organization. It’s a very different model of what we see even in the UK. Probably you close this example with insurer with sort of hospital network, and they can manage your treatment and send you to their pharmacies and keep the cost down. Yeah, in the States, it’s, yeah, difficult.
Kathryn Knowles 26:58
I was gonna say, I still say this, sometimes I wouldn’t envy the underwriter who had to, who had to sort that out, follow all the different ones.
Lee Doran 27:08
No. I mean, it’s super complex and it’s changing. Yeah, so yeah, to try and find a compliance solution there difficult, and it could be ongoing. So it’s an area I think us and most other international insurers just just stay there. We look after everywhere else in the world. We’re just not us. No,
Kathryn Knowles 27:27
absolutely, and I can fully see that obviously, the only I know for ourselves, we’ve been able to do stuff for people who are diplomats. So that can sometimes be different, but generally, yeah, it’s it’s not something that, from what I can gather, I know there are some firms, though. So if anybody does need pointing in the right direction, some firms who can do some things there, just, just get in touch. It wouldn’t be curer, um, but I said we will help with diplomats, but anything else where someone has fully moved there, then that’s going to be, that’s going to be something trickier and, and I’d point you in the point, in the right referral specialist in that place, um, okay, in
Lee Doran 28:03
the international space, will offer you a an option where you’ll get cover, say, 30 days, 45 days in in the US, for sort of temporary trips, or somebody’s flying into the US every other month. Say, Yeah, that might be suitable for, but for a policy that’s going to cover somebody resident there, you’re probably looking more to either a US insurer or, say, US insurer, or the a worldwide arm as well, absolutely.
Kathryn Knowles 28:26
And so I know from like the advising that I do in the UK and international do have things like non admitted and admitted policies in the UK, and a lot of insurers tend to be one or the other. And I think it’s important for people who are listening, especially in the advisor space, to know that if you are working with an insurer with a non admitted policies, do just keep an eye and speak with your PI insurer and make sure you have permissions to advise on non admitted policies. And they’ll also often be like a certain number that you’re allowed to do each year. So just keep an eye on that and make sure that you know what you are signing up for. But I know William Russell, you can do both, which is ideal. So can you just explain to listeners what that difference is between the admitted and the non admitted?
Lee Doran 29:20
Yeah. So I mean, William Russell, we can operate on an omitted basis and a non emitted basis, allowing us to adapt really changing regulatory environments and finding those compliance solutions from members all around the world. We’ve got Amy solutions in UK, the EU, united, our remorse and Indonesia, that means us together, our insurance partners in those regions are authorized in those markets to distribute under eye protection products where required. The products are localized. So in Dubai, there may be slightly different benefits to. What you perhaps see on our worldwide products, and the same with Indonesia, quite often in certain markets, there will be a requirement from the regulator to cover a particular condition or a particular benefit limit just to mandate it across all insurers, non emitted business tends to be targeted at more globally mobile expats. These might be clients looking for sort of a multinational product for their employees. So let’s say you’ve got people in the EU you may have people in Africa, you may have people in South America trying to find a solution that can can fit everybody. Quite often, HR directors are quite keen on everybody having exactly the same cover. If you try and buy local products, there’ll be differences, and then that can lead to friction within the workplace, individual protection as well. So people who are going around the world, so people who may be in one country and may be spending time in three or four over the course of the year, and not really staying anywhere from one sort of three or four months at a time. It can be suitable for those clients. Might be excluded from local available products as well. I mean, we spoke earlier about the UK and the residence restrictions. Other countries are the same. Sometimes they require you to be in country for so long, you may have to be a citizen. Depends on the country. It can be complex for an automated business. It basically means that we’re not licensed or admitted in the territory where that risk is located. So some countries, some territories, may prohibit non emitting non admitted insurers. Most operate exemptions or allowances for offshore insurers, special permissions can be in place by the local regulator, allowing the clients or the advisors to place the insurance risk offshore, or even a blanket exemption, which allows that by sort of the freedom to place their risk where, where they Think you should be. Yeah, he’s a big job for our compliance team, regular horizon scanning, making sure what’s going on. Obviously, the regulatory environment you’ll know from the UK changes a lot. Now, if you multiply that across the world, it’s, it’s, yeah, it’s a tough job. So I’d always say, speak to us. We can help get the advice that you need. But yeah, just depending where the client is, we’ll always try to get you either an admitted solution, or if we can’t, we see if we can find a solution that’s not admitted for you,
Kathryn Knowles 32:31
absolutely. And I think again, just for advisors in the UK, um, so obviously all your mainstream insurers would be, um, admitted, and like you say, you would be admitted as well Lee and bullying muscle. So with admitted you would have the FSCS protection, whereas the insurers that operate on a non admitted basis in the UK, you wouldn’t have that protection there. So it is just something to be mindful of. And what you tend to find is that those ones, I could be wrong in this Lee, but you, I’m sure you correct me, is that when it goes to non admitted, it is usually where there’s more, more complex client situation. And you know, it’s, it’s the products might have had to be tweaked slightly to make it available, to make it appropriate for this situation, for the clients. But it’s, it’s usually a thing of like, there is, there are no other options. And if this person needs this insurance, this is what it’s going to be.
Lee Doran 33:24
It’s exactly like it’s finding that, like, say that that tweet up, that bespoke solution, which maybe an off the shelf product can’t, can’t manage. So it’s another reason it’s always interesting in an international space, because I would say on a weekly basis, I come across a situation or something which is new, which always it’s good. It always keeps you fresh. It always keeps you thinking. It does mean you speak to to insurers and the compliance team a lot. Yeah.
Kathryn Knowles 33:53
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. So I’m just switched on. I’d be there the individual and the group side of things, and then we have a little chat beforehand about the group side as well. So lots of advisors do tend to work in either or space, you know, cure where we do both, which is, I absolutely love doing it. I love having that difference when I’m speaking to people, I think it’s important to like chat about how that potentially works, because it’s that whole thing, isn’t it is if you do group and then you suddenly try and do personal, or if you do person to try and do group, it’s it’s completely different rules and ways of doing things, in many ways, the information you need to know, the way the applications work, that kind of process, it’s very, very different. So what kind of different options are we going to see, sort of like health and travel wise, depending upon whether or not the application is on an individual or a group basis,
Lee Doran 34:46
I’d say similar to sort of what most listeners are going to expect in the UK. Groups, fantastic. So great employee benefit, one of the main advantages the national plans like say, you know, spread that risk across the different borders. Uh. I’m offering everything sort of under one roof. So whether it’s life, health, accident, critical illness, I’d say in some ways, applying for group cover can be more simple than individual. Yes, essentially no. Application forms to fill in free cover limits. If you’ve not listened to it, Kathryn has done a great podcast on on group protection. I’d recommend everybody to listen to it. Thank
Kathryn Knowles 35:26
you. I was just going to mention because it’s only just come out today, actually, but we did. I’ve done an iptf update, and it’s just, if you stay in there, about the income section side of things, because I adore income protection, and I put my my sort of like my wish would be, and I say, Oh no, I wouldn’t be popular with everybody with this. But my wish would be that, like we had to alter in role for pensions, that we ought to enroll for IP with companies, group IP for everyone. That would be, that would be amazing.
Lee Doran 36:01
It’s a good idea. I’m a massive fan of IP, yeah, yeah, I could see that working. Yeah, yeah. You might even get some government backing from that. Another way to reduce the bill.
Kathryn Knowles 36:18
Oh, I was gonna say, I know. But I know there’s lots of people far, far more positioned in than me, so like one week, often Kathryn marks, who have been certainly chatting to government for quite a while about this. But, you know, I don’t know, maybe have some kind of uprising from the podcast to say we need to do this. People, come on. But sorry again, I’ve gone tangenting. So break it back to what you were saying.
Lee Doran 36:40
I was just saying it can be more simple for groups. Yes, it really is going to take on that, that poor life. So rather than one person applying, and I want to disclose all the medical history, that insurer is going to take a group of 50 100 people, and the insurance, Knowles, is going to be half a dozen with maybe a serious illness, and a few more that are a little bit poorly. But in the scheme of things, that that pool of people should should look after itself almost a use the premium across everybody tends to be cheaper, because you’ll get a discount generally on the size of the group, or at least a better rate. No medicals for group cover for most companies in especially in the protection space, depending how old you are or how much cover you want insurance and ask for medical so it can be much simpler, and there’s no application forms to fill in. It’s really small. Groups also get the advantages, usually more options open to them. So yes, depending on the size of the group, if you the bigger the group, obviously, the more willing the insurer generally is to to open up bespoke in letting you set benefits at different prices and maybe a particular option, maybe a I’m just trying to think outside the box, what we’ve seen recently, maybe work. Medicals would be insured under a health plan, whereas they wouldn’t usually. But even things like benefits, like optical dental on a health plan, because you’ve got that big pool of people, the insurer knows that everybody’s going to use it so that everybody in that group will wear glasses, they’ll make an assessment to say what they think it’ll be and you can charge rate on that, whereas on something like an individual, probably, you know, if somebody’s buying a dental option or an optical option, they’re probably going to use it completely or pretty close to the to the limit. So they tend to be a lot more expensive for individuals. Yeah, and the biggest difference is that sort of group eligibility, that risk pooling, yeah. So that’s it works brilliantly. It does if it’s done really well.
Kathryn Knowles 38:49
Championed Farhan, vertly, about me, obviously, I’ve come across times when it’s not being done well, yeah,
Lee Doran 38:53
this, this is the key to getting, for me, any sort of group, cover Done, done correctly, and making sure it’s fair for everybody. That’s fair for the insurer just as much as it’s fair for everybody in the group. So it basically means everybody in that. I’m going to call it a pool of people, and inside the pool of people, you got lots of little puddles or or categories, yes, just making sure there is a common thread between them. So whether that’s senior directors on 10 times their salary, maybe managers on five times and then everybody else on two times up. That’s fine. What you can’t get is where a group will come and say, Okay, we want to ensure everybody for five times salary. But these two people are quite sick, so we’d like to ensure them for 10 times salary right now. Yes, obviously that leads to a distortion in that pool. And, yeah, most insurance a catch it, but yes, always, always good to to have an understanding and just have fairness and done right. It can work for everybody. Yeah,
Kathryn Knowles 39:56
I think as well though, because there’s a good air. Debate about this on the group side. Not long ago, I, as always, I got involved with something as soon as I hang on a minute that doesn’t make that started like a little bit of a, think, a little bit of a movement that kind of like took on a life of its own. And because there was, we have free medical underwriting limits, don’t we? With groups? Often you can get it’s about 500,000 of life as a minimum per person without medical underwriting. Kick, I think, is more towards the well, it’s a bit less. The IP would be, I think, generally, anywhere between 6575 but again, it just depends upon how big the group is. But there’s this thing of like, oh, free medical underwriting up to a certain limits. And we had a big debate for a while, because some insurance were saying, Well, yeah, it’s free medical underwriting, but we want to know if it’s this. And you’re like, and as an advisor, you go, Well, how am I? How am I supposed to know which ones I meant to tell you about? Because how would I know? Honestly, tell me? And then some insurance are going, Well, no, you don’t tell us. We don’t ask. And it was really, really weird, and it all, we all got sorted and everything and but then you see that about being fair for everybody. So it’s one of those things as well. I think it’s important, from an advisor point of view, is to go, do you know, it’s always that, that I could, but should I type of things to say, like, I could through a group, ensure somebody, and I’m using a bit of an extreme example here, I could ensure somebody, through a group who’s being diagnosed with stage four cancer and being given six months left to live. I could do that technically, based upon the three limits. However, it’s that thing if, but should I do it? Because, in all fairness, for one, like you said, it is going to distort the pool you are. You know, you wouldn’t be able to get that insurance on the standard market. And for this, you would be almost, it would almost feel like you’re possibly deliberately going through the group route so that you could get that person insured. So it’s really important when you’re an advisor to to kind of establish where you sit with this kind of information, to sort of go, Well, yes, I can ensure this kind of situation, but in all fairness, I’m not, you know, there’s part of it that thinks, Well, you know, there are going to be times where some insurers, not all of them, because some insurers would still go, do you know what? Yes, we would cover that, because that’s our rules, and we didn’t. But then it’s going to be some that are going to go, Well, no, because, you know, that’s, you know, fair representation. This isn’t really okay, and they might just, they might just refuse to pay out so you need, and that’s the last thing you want to happen in this situation. So giving that person the hope that they would get this insurance, the fund we sorted, and then it all go wrong. It’s very, very emotional. Not okay for anybody involved at all. So just set your limits as to where as an advisor, as to where you go. Yes, we can access thing. Yes, there’s no applications, which is brilliant, because this person’s got x, y, z. But you do need to really set some limits and and not just throw everything at group. That’s
Lee Doran 42:53
- Like say, if you’re ever insure, if you speak to the insurance company, they’ll tell you exactly what they want to know about and what they don’t want. I mean, some, some insurers will ask you if you get anybody, maybe with with cancer or heart problems on the plan. Yeah, I’ve seen insurers you’ve just asked if, if anybody is expecting to claim, anybody having ongoing treatment. I think all insurers will ask you if everybody’s actively at work on the day the policy starts, yes, yes, there are, yeah, obviously, I think that’s becoming weaker, because we’re both at home with the headset on.
Kathryn Knowles 43:31
It’s hard, isn’t it? The actively at work thing is it is tricky.
Lee Doran 43:35
It is tricky, and it’s a fantastic example of where understanding sometimes in international space is not what you’d recognize in the UK space. I mean, I spoke to a group of advisors in Dubai, for example, a couple of years ago, we were talking about just this point actively at work, a lot of people understood exactly as you and I’d understand it. But because in Dubai, you have to have a work visa, there was a couple of brokers who said it just means they’re on the work visa list, potentially not even in the country, and potentially not even doing the job. So it was just trying to understand where that had come from, because they had that same understanding across all these euros. So it’s just like says it could go back to training for that, for those, for those, or it could just be something that’s built itself up in the market, and that’s what the understanding was, which, which, when we actually changed the way we approached actively at work out then we just asked a direct question, are people at work today? Just, just ask what you want, rather than actively at work? And have a definition for it, yeah, but that that’s, that’s an example of where internationals are sometimes different, because think we talked about translation before, even sometimes simple phrases can be read and understood in different countries in a different way.
Kathryn Knowles 44:57
Absolutely, and it’s you. Know, just even from my sister being in Italy at times, you know, and, and it’s strange because she’s lived there now, she’s got her Italian citizenship, so she’s been a long, long time now, and it’s even now she’ll sometimes forget, like an English saying, because she’s there, been there so long, and you and I kind of booked him. She said, You lived here for 30 years. What’s wrong with you? It is so, so easy just to miss that little just almost like the essence, the context behind it, and and, yeah, it’s, it
Lee Doran 45:30
is, I mean, I mean, even speaking to sort of some of our colleagues in France or sometimes in Dubai. I mean, I’m an organ from Manchester. I loved that there were northernism in there. Now and again I look and I just see the baffle faces.
Kathryn Knowles 45:46
I have to say, I have there was one thing that made me very, very proud. So my sister teaches English as a second language in Italy and and she was, she felt very, I think, well, I don’t know if she felt it. I felt it. On her behalf, I felt very smug because the students were asked at one point which teachers they found easiest to learn from, and they found the northern accents easier to understand than the southern ones. So I was just like, right, we’ve clearly, clearly got the understandable voices. So there
Lee Doran 46:17
we go, voices just as Southern as that struggle with us exactly.
Kathryn Knowles 46:20
So, so we just bypass the southerners and go and live in Italy. So, yeah, I was gonna say, I feel this isn’t working, especially on the International Space. You can start all that out. Firstly, we’ll be sorted insurance wise. Okay, then, so I know we said we probably should have, like, a quick chat through some case studies. I know you’ve brought some of just sort of probably more kind of like quite straightforward things, more like a complex situation. We’re being very, very careful, obviously, in terms of making sure that we’re not doing anything that’s identifiable to any clients. So if you could just take us through them, Lee and give us a bit of insight, please.
Lee Doran 46:57
Yeah. Super simple one. We quite often have expats in different countries. So let’s say Hong Kong looking to take out a mortgage in another country. So let’s say France, yeah, obviously the mortgage provider is going to want life cover in place for that mortgaged amount. Your ex Pat, who may be in Hong Kong, doesn’t, perhaps satisfy the residency requires for a local product struggling to get insurance in France because they don’t live there either, and the mortgage profits in France, then that’s something we can quite often help with. Yeah, we can. We can write a cover that would would provide that coverage that the mortgage lenders satisfied with, enabling that person to buy a property, especially when you get sort of that that risk split over three countries, it can be difficult to find an insurer where it doesn’t quite fit in the box, whether it’s residency requirements in the country or in because you’ve not been there long enough trying to buy a property in another country where you’re not resident either, the local providers might not want to talk to you, so talking to international insurer might might be your only option.
Kathryn Knowles 48:16
Yeah, and I think you also had like a quite Do you have a complex case as well, is that every day,
Lee Doran 48:24
every day, every day, we do a lot globally mobile people, for people sort of going all over the world, I think we cover, think At the last count, I think we’re up to 163 countries. People are resident, not those. People travel, obviously, lots of different areas. So I’d say a common one for us is somebody maybe relocating from the UK, somewhere like China. So they’ve got a new job in China, but then maybe part of the roles are sales, and they have to travel the world. So a common one would be sort of a UK national, going out to China, maybe there six months, and then spend the rest of the year globe trotting. So maybe Angola, maybe Argentina, maybe three or four months in Sierra Leone, and he’s trying to find that solution that’s that’s going to give them the protection they need. Obviously they won’t have been in China again for any length of time, quite often. And then the difficulties in maybe going to some of the regions which might be seen as higher risk, especially from a UK insurer point of view, and just that length of time, quite often, they want you in one country for six months, or at least to be going to one or two countries. We see people who may be spread across five six countries in a year, for a decent amount of time in each we can find them a solution. Yeah, that sounds
Kathryn Knowles 49:43
absolutely fantastic. It’s so good to know that there’s these options out there, because I do think that it’s it’s just becoming more and more that people are moving so much and becoming so much more international. And I certainly don’t think it’s going to stop.
Lee Doran 49:58
It’s only accelerating that. But yeah, my girls are reaching the age where they starting to think about what they might want to do, probably actuaries, like the rest of the class. But like we say, we’re both with our headsets on. You could be anywhere in the world, yeah. And I think a lot, especially especially young people, they are thinking about, well, I wait to go traveling, but I can combine this for the job. Now, I don’t need to take two or three years out going around the world. I can work do it,
Kathryn Knowles 50:26
which is just amazing.
Lee Doran 50:27
Yeah. I mean, we talked how scary the world was and how it how it might be currently, but we are seeing lots of people, probably more so than ever, want to get out there and experience new cultures and new ways of living, yeah, and sign it into work. Well, we can all work remotely, absolutely.
Kathryn Knowles 50:45
Well, we had, we had somebody worked with us in the marketing, and she was somebody who just loved, loved traveling. It was like she was always really sad, in a sense, when she was in in the UK. So someone’s on my door, someone cockapoos Having a back, apologize if you can do it. And she loved it. And she just, she approached me one time, and she was just like, Could I potentially go to Thailand and go island hopping for three months? And I was just like, obviously, there’s quite a few jobs in our office where it was the case of that just wouldn’t be able to happen because at times, but her role that she could do any time of the day from anywhere. And I was just like, go for it. So then, you know, we’d have our meetings, and she’ll be there just like, getting ready to go to the beach and everything. And it was, it was so lovely to be able to support that. You know, obviously, I see you can’t do it with every single job, but it, it worked, you know, for her and and so, yeah, it was, it was really nice to do that. But I’m trying not to think of my babies going and living abroad and seeing them through headsets and stuff like that. So yes, I’m not, I’m not ready for that yet. Mighty
Lee Doran 51:50
getting to the point where I am ready for that. No, I think it’s only something we’ll see continue to increase, because as these people are developing their careers, I mean, previously, they’ve had to probably pause that career, yeah, absolutely year or two out to go and travel the world. Now these people don’t need to, they can carry on. So it won’t be long until they’re all in management roles and senior management, and they’ve done it. So it graduates to be in the norm. I
Kathryn Knowles 52:21
think as well, we’re kind of, we’re putting it there as well from aren’t we sort of like because with us all being potentially at home with our headsets and everything, and we’re we’re proving it’s possible. So, so there we go. We’re helping them. So I need to stop doing it so I can so my children don’t see me doing it, and they don’t think that it’s okay to just go work from anywhere and do anything. My elders just came back from his first trip abroad with school, without me. So I’m I’m okay. I’ve just sent him, like, gifts, like, every day of like, somebody like being full on and like, where are
52:53
you? I’ve not heard from you.
Kathryn Knowles 52:56
Are you okay? Luckily, he was very sweet. He would send me a message, which was, along lines of, it’s busy. I’ve walked a lot,
Lee Doran 53:07
at least, if they went to Thailand, you’d have zoom visits, and you can guarantee somebody’s gonna answer a zoom call or a teams call.
Kathryn Knowles 53:14
Oh, absolutely. And then absolutely I was gonna say he actually might do Thailand, because he was, he’s between, between, between being an actuary or a marine biologist. They’re pretty so he’s, yeah, so just it’s slightly different. He’s, might’ve been marine biologist forever. And then he started asking me about what people earn in the in the industry that I work in. I was like, I said, Well, some people, because he’s also been looking I was like, some people will earn this, and some people can earn up to this, and, and so, yeah, so now he’s just like, I think I might work in finance. I’m like, Okay,
Lee Doran 53:49
I did. Used to work with an underwriter. He used to work effectively for six months of the year. Nice, once of the year, he would sort of go work for different issuers, and then for six months a year he just pursued his passion. Nice. I could be option. So if he went out to Thailand, he could be six months on, few weeks off. Yeah, he could combine them both.
Kathryn Knowles 54:09
Well. In the morning, he could do his scuba diving excursions with people. He could do all that kind of stuff. In the evening, does his numbers sorted.
Lee Doran 54:18
You’ve got the time difference as well. So you’re making three or four hour scuba diving before everybody else logs
Kathryn Knowles 54:24
on exactly? Yeah, we’re planning it. We’re fine, except for the facts of he’s not allowed in Thailand. He’s not far away from me. He’s still my baby, right? Thank you so much. Leanne. Thank you for all these insights. And so next time I’m going to be doing a feature on updates in regards to cigarettes and alcohol, very specifically did that for the song. So visit the website. Practical hyphen protection.co.uk. If you’d like to see our other episodes and also to get your CPD certificate on the website too. Thanks to our sponsors, and we actually have new sponsors now the next gen planners. I’m very excited to be working with us financial community and. And obviously do go check out what they have there in terms of this podcast and everything else as well. So thank you so much. Lee, bye. You
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