Practical Protection

Practical Protection

On Posted on by Practical Protection to podcast, Season 10, Uncategorized

Episode 11 – AI and Insurance

Hi everyone, Lisa Balboa is back and she is sharing her insights into how AI is helping insurance across the world. I am quite a reluctant AI enthusiast as I’m always nervous it means less people involved in decisions, but Lisa brilliantly explains how AI is working alongside people to improve access to insurance and better claims experiences. 

With insights from Australia, China, South Africa and America, Lisa shares different approaches to insurance outside of the UK market. 

The key takeaways:

  • AI can be used to proactively look through medical records of declined applications, to see if the ‘computer says no’ has been too harsh
  • AI can be develop and grow over time, so that it can make more automated decisions, freeing up underwriters to focus on the more complex cases 
  • AI can play a fundamental role in preventative healthcare by spotting early changes in health 

Next time I will be joined by Kate Baldry, Research and Development Underwriter at Hannover Re, talking about her insights into colo-rectal cancer.  

Remember, if you are listening to this as part of your work, you can claim a CPD certificate on our website, thanks to our sponsors NextGen Planners.

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Kathryn Knowles  00:11

Hi everybody. We are on season 10, Episode 11, and today I have Lisa Balboa back with me. Hi, Lisa, hi Kathryn, great to be here. Lovely to have you back with us. Lisa is here to share her amazing actuarial insights into how AI is helping to shape the future of insurance. This is the practical protection podcast. So I

 

Kathryn Knowles  00:42

think I want to start off by saying it’s going to be quite an interesting dynamic on this podcast, because I’m quite a reluctant AI enthusiast. I’m really, really nervous of AI. I’m like, I watch the Black Mirror episodes and things like that. And you know, kind of thing, you know, the TV shows with AI started taking over the world. I get really, really nervous about it. But in general, for insurance, if I just bring it back to like a reality for now, yeah, I do get a bit nervous because I start to think, Well, is it going to stop the need for people, how is it going to work with people who are, like higher risk, who maybe sometimes need that little bit of a human, empathetic approach to some of the underwriting, the reasons behind certain disclosures, things like that. And then on the other side of things, we’re gonna have Lisa, who is super AI enthusiast. I remember when I first met you, Lisa, obviously, we were working with the IFA mental health working group, but then it was, we’re just talking about this as a lucid a couple of years ago, and you were there, and you had this ring that had this was doing all these metrics on you. And we were talked about it as well. And you talked about these amazing apps on phones that would like help underwriting and everything. And it was impossible not to get sort of caught up in your enthusiasm as well. So I think you’re the really pro AI person here, and I’m kind of like being, I’m sorry, jumping on the happiness that you have for it, if that makes sense,

 

Lisa Balboa  02:02

yeah, absolutely. Kathryn, I’m always really interested to embrace technology see how it can apply to what we do back in life and health insurance. I totally understand where you’re coming from, though, like with AI, it’s just advancing so rapidly and there’s so much uncertainty that I think it’s really important that we see, you know, what are some practical examples where this technology is really creating value for this industry? So super excited to be here and unpack this with you,

 

Kathryn Knowles  02:29

definitely. And I like the idea of, you know, software, we’re doing it about the practical things, and not where I’m in my head going off to, like the crazy TV shows and like films and stuff like that, but we’re going to talk about where it actually matters and what it’s doing. So to start off with, because so many areas that we could discuss, obviously, I know we’ve picked some that we think are going to be the most interesting, and where there’s so much stuff going on and emerging at the moment. And I think, you know, obviously our listeners tend to be people who are working Protection Insurance space. One of the key areas that we have issues with is medical reports. I think that would be probably the bane of most advisors, existences. I’m sure it is the bane of GPS existences, insurers, underwriters, everybody’s just like, oh, for medical records. And, you know, we have such a mix. We have the paper records, which can have their benefits sometimes over electronic and vice versa for the electronic, the electronic ones can be done incredibly quickly. It’s so so smart. The way the systems work really speed up, in a sense, the underwriting times, in case, in the sense of getting the medical information to the underwriters. But then the underwriters have hundreds of pages sometimes to look through, rather than just like a eight page handwritten one from a GP. So it’d be good, because we still see issues in this space as advisors. So like I had one the other day, where I know, with the electronic reports, it’s meant to be a case of, well, once it’s with the GP, they just press a button, really, and it goes off. And so it can be as quick as a week, but I still had one the other day that it was three weeks before the GP even looked at pressing that button. And you know, obviously we do have to be so, so conscious and respectful of the fact that GPs are incredibly busy. And obviously an insurance report isn’t probably on the height of their agenda versus the patients they are seeing day in day out. But what’s happening in this space at the moment? Now, you said, sort of like help with the this medical side of things? Yeah,

 

Lisa Balboa  04:27

it’s a really fast, moving and really fascinating space. So totally resonate with all the challenges that you were mentioning. In my role. I’m really lucky. I get to see across the globe how different markets are doing things and using not just paper records, but going beyond that, so tapping into electronic health record data, where it’s available and where it’s able to be used for insurance purposes. So just to take a concrete example, in Australia, we have a case where we’re able to support insurers to use electronic health. Health records data to support customers to get access to cover. So it’s a bit similar to what you described, a customer might be applying for life insurance, and maybe traditionally, they would have even been declined for life insurance, where that quote comes back, or maybe they would need to get more follow up evidence, such as those paper records that you were mentioning, which you can say which can take quite a bit of time. So instead of that, the customer is then asked to consent if they would like their electronic health data to be shared with the insurer. So that’s things like, you know, the data from the the GP, the data from where they visited, the hospitals, different health data that’s there, but rather than being in a paper format, it’s available electronically to share very quickly with the life insurer. So based on that, the life insurer can then get access to that data much quicker, drill down into it and see, can that person where they previously would have been declined for life insurance? Can they actually get access to some life insurance cover, either on the same terms or maybe with a reduced sum assured. So I think it’s a really positive use for this electronic health data, just to put more options out there where someone would have been declined before but is willing to actually tap in and share that data that they have available electronically, and then consent to give that to the insurer. They can then, in many cases, get access to insurance from that insurer, when previously they wouldn’t have been able to get that opportunity. I was

 

Kathryn Knowles  06:29

gonna say, I think that’s really fascinating, because for me, I kind of in my mind, and especially the way we sometimes see some sort of like applications work in the UK, you kind of is that kind of what you think is a computer saying, No, you kind of think is all of this going ahead to basically just get people out of the system as quick as possible, that the insurer doesn’t want to ensure that’s sometimes the impression that you can can get from an advisor and from a consumer point of View. And what I find that really fascinating, the fact that actually the AI side of thing is going to be used to, it’s so proactive in a sense, in a sense of, it’s not a case of like, let’s get everyone out the way. It’s actually proactively going right? Initially, the computer says no, but we want to proactively see if we can do more. And I wouldn’t have thought of AI being used in, like, the decline space. So that’s that’s really interesting, that it’s been done from a completely different mindset than I would have originally thought, yeah. And

 

Lisa Balboa  07:32

I think what’s really interesting about this example, too, I mean, is almost like the automatic system is what said no originally, yeah. And then here you get this electronic data. And the way you start to build up the use of AI in this space is actually in the beginning, to keep the underwriter in the loop. So in the beginning, it’s a case of getting that electronic data back, and the underwriter can look into that in detail and build up that confidence for what to then program into the automated system to set those future rules. So it’s actually a really carefully considered process. We don’t just let AI loose on the electronic health data, and if it goes and makes a decision. We work in such a technically complex space, and medical conditions are really complex and overlapping, so having that process where you start to get the data, build the confidence and then program it into this system can actually lead to, like, you say, really positive outcomes for customers, like, so that data that’s available

 

Kathryn Knowles  08:27

Absolutely, and I like the idea this still needs to be a person there that, you know, there’s, there’s still that person looking at it and you know, it’s, it’s just nice to know that this works absolutely, giving an extra look from, From from, like, a couple of different ways, though, isn’t it? So the person might look at something and say, well, actually, the computer has maybe been a bit favorable here, because we’ve got this, this, and here, I need to teach it more about these sometimes the core, then it’ll become morbidities, isn’t it? That’s a word for it. But then we would then have the other side of it. We’re like, Oh, do you know what? I think the computer’s been a bit harsh, actually. So it’s just really lovely to know that it isn’t just being let loose, in a sense, and really intriguing to think of what that could then, in a sense, how it would have I can’t even imagine how it would evolve to the next stage, in a sense, of once, you know, once this level is done, and this is all kind of like done really smoothly, there’ll be the next step around this. I can’t even imagine what that would be, absolutely blows my mind. But AI is also starting to be used quite a bit in the sort of in distribution and sometimes in the way that insurance processes work. So what kind of things are we seeing in this space? And I know, sorry, some of the areas you’re talking about. And I have to say, I’m seriously I’m so jealous of all the travel that you do, and all this insight that you get in terms of the global side of things. It’s absolutely fascinating, but it’s so, so relevant, because I know you’re going to talk about lots of different areas, and it’s incredible just to see where each kind of market is taking things, and how everybody’s kind of like intertwining and learning from each

 

Lisa Balboa  09:57

other. Yeah, you’re so right. So I love visiting. In all the all the different markets, and all of them using technology in in slightly different way. And I think there’s so much opportunity for learning. So for example, I was in China recently, and there we we’re seeing advisors embracing this technology to actually support them to connect with their customers. So they have what they call online merge offline platforms. So it’s essentially a digital first approach to distribution. So the customer will come along and they will be invited to follow the insurer’s account on social media. They use WeChat in China, but it’s effectively that their social media platform, and actually there’s some value exchange for the customer that often, a lot of the insurers will give a free gift, maybe a free dental checkup, a health assessment, as an incentive for them to actually connect with that insurance company, which is great. And one big problem that they’re facing in the market there is the number of insurance advisors have shrunk. And that’s a big problem because, although a few years ago, we thought maybe director distribution for life insurance was going to be the next big thing. I mean, that never took off. Our industry is really complex, as you know, people hugely invite value having those advisors then, and they want that advice to help them buy that life insurance policy that’s going to fit their needs. Yeah. So what this platform does is it can help to smart match an advisor to that person that’s likely to be the best advisor to help them the best advisor to build a rapport for them, because by following that account on social media, they’re actively consenting to share their information with the insurer, and it will benefit them. They’re getting that free gift. They’re also going to get a relevant advisor that can help them with their financial protection needs. So it’s a way that the advisor can then have access to this digital platform, and the advisor will see a signal if that person’s financial needs change, maybe their family is growing, maybe they’ve moved job, it can send an alert to the advisor to check in with that customer, to review their coverage. So it’s a great way where a lot of advisors have have left the industry. People are effectively left now without an advisor. So this is a really positive way to help the next generation of advisors, and the advisors still in the industry, connect back with those customers and make sure their insurance cover is still relevant for them?

 

Kathryn Knowles  12:21

Absolutely, I was going to say, I think that is so, so important, especially in the protection insurance space. So we get a complete range of different people listening to the podcast, obviously. But what’s important to know is, in protection insurance, if you, if you are just working in the this in kind of assurance, there’s no requirement for you to keep in touch with your clients, and there’s no requirement to do reviews or anything like that. Obviously, a lot of us do do that because it’s the right thing to do by the clients. And obviously, from a business point of view, it also makes a lot of sense. But when you speak to say, like, investment pension advisors or mortgage advisors, mortgage advisors will absolutely have like, a review time because the mortgage rate changes. And the people working in pensions and investments, they will have an annual check in, because they have to have an annual check in. So they see this. But people in some areas of advice in the UK, there’s, there’s nothing to say, reach out. So I mean, what we tend to do is we reach out to clients periodically, more certain, like, have you, you know, have you stopped smoking? Have you got a different mortgage? Have you changed jobs? Has your family grown, as you know, and you sort of, you do these different things to see these triggers. But this would be brilliant, because it’s using the computer systems, in a sense, to, just as you say, to do those automatic alerts. So it’s less resources for advisors, which I imagine that could be why a lot of advisors don’t do it because of the fact that it’s the resource. So that would be really, really interesting to, sort of like, see how that works over time and and how that could potentially be used in the UK. It’s I was gonna say, because it’s strange again, there isn’t. Except, you know what I’m like with technology. I don’t allow my apps to do anything. I tried every now and then, I’ll make sure I go into the settings and make sure they’re not letting everything, everybody know everything about me. I’m terrible, Lisa. I really am. I put in fake dates of birth.

 

Lisa Balboa  14:12

I get, like, be willing to trust the technology. I do think in Europe, you know, it’s likely to be maybe a separate app where you can then build up that relationship over time, share what you’re comfortable to share with the advisor on a more proactive basis, all the advances in technology we see needs to be adapted to each local market. So I think, like you said, there’s great scope for this tool to help advisors and help customers get the relevant support at the right time, as things are changing for them, it needs to be an active process. It’s totally normal in China and the process that I described, yes, and then for something like that in the UK, just to find that that correct way that the customer will will want to have that ongoing relationship with the advisor, so that they can see the value coming through, I think that that’s the most important thing. It needs to be valuable to both

 

Kathryn Knowles  14:58

parties. Absolutely, I can just. Imagine though my advisor be like, right, hang on a minute. I’ve got four dates of birth for you across different things. What’s what’s going on, what’s your actual birthday? But also, we are seeing quite a lot Amy in terms of, like, the pre underwriting, in terms of AI, I know that there’s an insurer that we use in the international space, and part of their pre underwriting is just that they scan your face, in a sense. And so there’s quite a lot happening in that area, isn’t there as well?

 

Lisa Balboa  15:28

Yeah, I think this is a really interesting space where there’s lots of opportunities for AI as well. If you think about pre underwriting customers and advisors, they want to be more informed about what products are going to be available for this person, and so there’s a lot now with different health data, whether it’s from from apps or tapping into, you know, the person actually declaring some of their health conditions and seeing what product might be a fit. We’re starting to see some developments when it comes to health focus AI. So there’s a lot going on in the medical space using AI to help people understand their symptoms, what conditions they have, there’s starting to be talk about twisting that to see, can we actually use that to support pre underwriting for customers as well? Because ultimately, it will help people be better informed around what products to pursue, and it can help the the insurer as well when it comes to getting the right fit for the customer in terms of the products, and, of course, for advisors to help you be more informed in terms of what’s available. So yeah, I think it’s quite an exciting space. It’s where you hear all about these chat bots in the news. When it comes to asking things like about health, there could be potential to twist that and actually apply it back to our industry, to to make even more efficient processes when it comes to something like pre underwriting. That sounds

 

Kathryn Knowles  16:47

absolutely fantastic. It’s reminding me again, I’ve gone back to lucid again from a couple of years ago. I can’t remember the the person’s name was a doctor’s cardiologist, and he was talking about how there were, he was developing technology, like, in a sense, almost like on an iPad that, you know, medical students could take around and use to and it would be diagnosing heart conditions and things like that. And it just, it was absolutely fascinating. You can definitely see where these kinds of things are going to be so, so useful. And I think it’s that, like you’re saying in health space, but we see the advancements in the health space. So like with that, you I don’t know if you’d necessarily think of that as in, like, Well, how would that translate back to insurance? But it’s just all about making it work and developments, and then seeing those offshoots that could suddenly bring out even more insight. So yeah,

 

Lisa Balboa  17:33

and I think from a personal perspective, like, I’m quite optimistic, like in the health space, about some of these tools supporting doctors and the next generation of doctors, particularly where it’s a less common condition, it could just help them to think and spark the way of thinking around Have you considered this, this condition, it might be something less common, but that could be the cause. And again, I’m sure there’s applications that we can then apply back to insurance that particularly where, as you were talking about comorbidities earlier, people might have complex comorbid health conditions, and that there can be opportunities to leverage some of these tools to help unpack that a bit, you know, with it, with the human guiding that so almost like a thinking and a sparring partner for for that expert doctor or expert underwriter, to actually help them drill deeper and Consider a broader range of things about that individual.

 

Kathryn Knowles  18:22

Absolutely, it’s just, it’s all fascinating. But I think if we go towards the back, towards sort of like the underwriting, sort of like and like the practical aspects of it for advisors at the moment, you know, there’s, I think everyone in the industry is frustrated with underwriting turnaround times. Now, I say that from an advisor point of view. I also hear it with account managers in the insurers. I hear it with the underwriters in the insurers. You know, there is just, there is so, so many cases going through. Obviously, we’ve got huge amounts of people who are going to go straight through on online systems, you know, huge, huge amounts. But the very fact that we’re sometimes getting, you know, you know, sometimes it shows we’re easily getting up to 10 to 10 days, two weeks before an underwriter can look at an application. It just shows that there are huge amounts of people with medical conditions applying for insurance, and there’s clearly huge amounts of data that needs to be gone through and and at the moment, it’s not really working. I mean, obviously a perfect solution right at this moment would be probably, for the amount of underwriters in the industry to, like, double. I mean, I think that would be, like, really, really ideal, in the sense of just, it’s just impossible for them to go through everything they’re going through in the amount of hours that they have. And, you know, it would be brilliant if there was more and more underwriters. But, I mean, that’s that’s not a quick thing to do. Obviously, being trained as an underwriter takes a lot of time. It is. There’s so much to learn in terms of the medical side of things, in terms of the insurance, in terms of the the manuals that the actuaries put together and and obviously those guidances and things like that. And then learning, obviously those. Crossovers as well, you know. And obviously it gets so, so complicated. And AI clearly has a place at this. And I think again, this is again where I get a little bit cautious, because I don’t want personal underwriters to go away, in the sense that I really like personal underwriters as well. So it’s certainly not a comment on underwriters when I say we’re all getting frustrated in terms of turnaround times, I know that they’re frustrated as well, but it almost feels like it’s at the point as well where we’ve just go for everybody. It’s a case of, well, what’s happening right now isn’t working, and something needs to happen. And the something is either you change the underwriting questions so you actually just don’t insure as many people, which nobody wants that. I don’t believe you get more underwriters, or we start to look more at technology. So how is AI starting to help in the in the actual underwriting process?

 

Lisa Balboa  20:52

Yeah, I think there’s some really great uses here. So we spoke a bit about electronic health data. We don’t have that in the in the UK, like you said, what we do have in the UK is lots of notes, lots of GTP reports, a lot of handwritten paper records. And there is a role for AI that can help underwriters to analyze this information in a quicker, more structured way. So we’re starting to see quite a few insurtechs emerging dedicated to to this exact problem, which is, how can we support underwriters to do their Manual reviews in a quicker, more efficient way? So maybe the AI can flag a clear decline cause very quickly to to the underwriter, and that will free up their time to then dive deeper into the more complex cases. So if the AI can be used to fast track the really clear, clear, cut, clean cases and then the very obvious decline cases, without that person having to read through hundreds and hundreds of pages. That really means we can free up time for those more complex, gray cases where the underwriter needs to dive deeper. So there’s a lot going on, a lot of insurers piloting this sort of technology. I think what, what’s really important is efficiency, but but also decision quality. So a big focus on making sure the quality of the decisions are unaffected, and that we can really get those efficiency gains that that we can bring about, and that will take time, because we’re adopting into processes new technology. So people need to get comfortable with that. The technology needs to be adapted in a way that actually feels natural for us as humans to use and integrate into our processes. So I think it will be a journey, but it’s a fantastic example of how AI can actually be used to improve efficiency. And like you say, it’s not about reducing jobs. People have a lot of work that they that they need to do, and there’s an overload of cases. So actually, using technology to get through more cases and spend more time on the complex ones, I think is a really great use case for AI that’s in development,

 

Kathryn Knowles  22:58

absolutely, and I think we’re probably going to see, because I know there’s so much talk about the younger generations and trying to get them into sort of like buying insurance and understand the value of it, and just think about it then, especially for the UK well, because obviously I’m thinking of my children, my children, all of their health records, everything will be electronic. But for myself, a lot of the stuff in the past wouldn’t have been electronic, you know. And I think because I have had, you know, where I’ve asked for my data, I think it’s all been scanned on now and everything. So it is there, but there must be, I’m assuming, millions of people in the UK who don’t have full electronic records, which is what makes this harder. But as as we get to that stage where more and more of the population, because of the obviously, people without the electronic ones, we will be getting older and passing away. The younger ones will have electronic records. It should just naturally make this work quite nicely, shouldn’t it? I think, yeah,

 

Lisa Balboa  23:53

and I think there’ll be a big role to play for the insurance industry to work on. How can we access that, that data as an industry, the electronic data, and that could take still a few years to get access to that electronic data. There’s work already going on in that space to see how could we get access to that data in an efficient way as an industry, and just to really explain the positive use cases that there is for being able to quickly share that electronic data. But like you say, there’s still going to be a lot of paper based records that are still going to need to be analyzed. So it’s not an either or. I think we need a combination of approaches when it comes to this topic to find the most efficient way for customers to understand what insurance products they can purchase. Absolutely, I know you’ve got, I think an example in America you’re going to take us all around the world, aren’t you yes to the states yet, but this is a great example. So in the US, yeah, as far as I know, they don’t have a they don’t have a national health health system. They don’t have a centralized electronic health record. But even so, we’re still able to use laboratory data. So there are some big laboratories in the US. We. Where they would have the data for people’s like, for example, blood test results, cholesterol results, those sorts of things. So we’ve actually been able to partner up with a big laboratory providers to accelerate underwriting for people applying for life insurance. So when a customer comes to apply for life insurance, they can consent to share their laboratory data with the insurer, and about 70% of people. So 70 out of 100 people applying for life cover will have some sort of laboratory data available about them through the system. And what’s really great is of the people with data available, yeah, 85% so 85 out of the 100 people that have data available on them can get an instant decision. So rather than needing to go for more lab tests, for example, which costs time, costs money for the insurer, and it takes a lot of time for individuals. And I don’t know about you, I don’t particularly like going for blood tests. So this is an alternative. It’s a way to tap into a blood test that maybe that person did a year ago, a few years ago, to get that data back and actually get people an instant decision on the life cover. So that’s really good. We have more than a half a million applicants that have gone through that system in the US. So it’s really positive, and can have a great impact. Just to get people life insurance cover sooner. That

 

Kathryn Knowles  26:26

sounds fantastic. I’m so sorry I muted myself. You might be able to hear in the background my cockapoo for whatever reason. I think he thinks there’s somebody nearby the house and has gone on alert. So if I suddenly mute myself, I’m very, very sorry. But no, I think you’re absolutely right. And yes, I’m not a fan of blood tests either. And so I think that’s absolutely fantastic. And you know, I’ve had quite a few clients with white coat syndrome as well where, you know, they’ve not been able to have a medical in a sense, because of the fact that they needed to have one in terms of the amount of insurance that they were going to go for. So it was like trying to see if it can be done in line with other ones, if it if they’re having like a regular, like yearly review, do you wait until that happens so that it’s not putting them through it multiple times and things like that? Because then obviously, as well, with that kind of situation, completely throw off everything else. If you’ve got white coat syndrome, your blood pressure is going to go through the roof as well. So it’s but, yeah, I think anything like that just sounds, sounds really, really useful. The the least that we’re putting people through to get the insurance has got to be a positive thing. Um, because it’s easier,

 

Lisa Balboa  27:29

we can make it the better, right? Well, exactly,

 

Kathryn Knowles  27:32

because you know people always you know in terms of, like, the things you know, people you know generally want to know that their pensions working well. They want to know. They want the mortgage, they want the travel insurance, and when it comes to life insurance and the other protection insurances, it’s the kind of thing that you know people, in a sense, know that they need. But you you they don’t want to necessarily be thinking about it. You know, we’re talking about death and very, very serious ill health, and it’s just even get people into that conversation in the start is, is tricky. Sometimes, you know, because, and especially with the younger generation, because, as we all know, and when we’re young, absolutely, we’re indestructible. And this is just, you know, stuff like, that’s just old people, things, you know. And I think you know, when probably age of 30, it would be classed as old for those people. And, you know, and I’m just, I’m just crying. Kathryn, I’m old. I know I’m crying a little inside, because obviously, I just turned 40. So it’s just like, okay, had one. I have to say, there’s a thing on social media. I’m going to complete segue here where there’s like, people doing this, saying about, it’s like a David Attenborough over, speaking over and going like, and this is the older person who doesn’t know how to do anything, and it’s just people in an office, and it’s someone who’s really young in the office, and and then there’s like, me sort of like, just, sort of like imagining you a dinosaur. But I have to say, as well, Lisa, I didn’t get over the fact that somebody that we employ one is born in 2000 and her mum was younger than me, that absolutely destroyed me. I was just like, I can’t speak to you for a little bit. Just give me a day.

 

Lisa Balboa  29:12

You’re very young. Kathryn, my husband turns 40 this year as well. So,

 

Kathryn Knowles  29:20

yeah, exactly. We’re young. We’re still young. I actually feel quite empowered now that I’m Fauci I kind of feel like everyone be like, Do you know what? She’s been here quite a while now she knows her stuff. You know? I feel like it’s given like a new badge of, sort of like, Yeah, I know what I’m on about, no messing about, no back talks.

 

Lisa Balboa  29:37

Kathryn, you could have an extra badge on LinkedIn. Exactly,

 

Kathryn Knowles  29:40

exactly, right. Sorry, taking us on the right segue there. So in terms of things, obviously brilliant to hear that, but we always know the main thing is the claim. You know, the whole point of insurance is what is going to be that eventual thing that we don’t want to happen. But this is the whole. Point of why we’re doing it, and we’re seeing so much in terms of claims management, where, you know, claims can go through absolutely beautifully and be really fast, really efficient. We are seeing as well the issues in the fact of, not only are the there’s probably more applicants to underwriters in terms of turn on time, but we’re probably, we’re starting to see more claims in terms of claims to claims decision makers. I know that’s not the right term, but you know, I mean in terms of, you know, who is going to be deciding and there’s, again, they are so, so so much going on, and there’s only so much resources and time a person has to review these things. So what are we seeing in the AI space in terms of claims?

 

Lisa Balboa  30:45

Yeah, I think we’re seeing some really positive things. So even prior to claim that, there’s quite a lot that AI and health technology can help with. So we’re seeing some really positive uses around helping people with health management, so using AI to actually let that person know what’s the next best action they could take to improve their health. So maybe doing exercise more regularly, eating certain types of food. There’s so much data out there, like for those using different apps, like you mentioned, I have a smart ring that’s giving me loads of data as well. So much data. But concretely, AI can help people to know what is that next best thing they can do, and also the next best realistic thing they can do. It’s easy for smoker. You could say, stop smoking, but that’s not an easy thing for them to do. So what’s the next best thing that you know also they could easily incorporate into their daily routine as well to improve their health? Yeah, and we’re seeing technology going beyond that as well, so also using different apps or data analytics to help people with earlier diagnosis or earlier detection of different health conditions like heart arrhythmias or skin cancer, or even when it comes To the mental health side, also helping people to understand that they may have mental health sooner and intervene earlier. So all of that helps to reduce the pressure on claims. So that’s already very positive. You said we’re yeah that there could be high claims volume. So all of this technology can help to reduce that for some people. And also that’s obviously very positive for that individual, right? Better Health for people, yeah, what’s not to like about that? So I think that’s really positive already. Yeah, absolutely, I

 

Kathryn Knowles  32:30

have to say, though, in terms of wearables, now, I saw Alan, my husband also has one of those rings now, and he absolutely loves it, you know, obviously, it’s telling him how much he’s sleeping and all this kind of stuff, which he’s, you know, obviously, again, is a really, really big factor in terms of long term health. And I struggle with wearables, because I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t like to wear things on a night time, and I said, so I could wear them during the day. And I do have a smart watch, but I have to say, I get really ticked off with my smart watch, because I tend to go swimming. I know you’re a swimmer too, Lisa, so I do swimming and I do Pilates I’ve now, and obviously I do stuff in the gym as well. I mix it up in terms of, like, cardio and weight, you know, strength training, things like that. And it really ticks me off, because I’ll do pilates and I’ll be like, 1015, minutes in, and it says to me, have you actually still exercising? And I’m like, Oh, just go away. You know, yes, I am exercising. I’m in the middle of doing a downward pike. So no, my arms not moving everywhere. That’s not what Pilates does, you know, kind of thing. And it really annoys me sometimes, and it makes me feel like I’m not working hard enough and, and I know it’s just one of those things that gets not true.

 

Lisa Balboa  33:40

I mean, for me personally, now, when I do Pilates, I don’t wear any wearable. I just add it into that afterwards. You can still add in your exercise afterwards to keep track, but like you say, that you don’t have that, that distraction when you’re doing it, and it could be vibrating or feeling uncomfortable. So there’s loads of different ways to use this technology to help others, whether it’s an app or whether it’s a wearable, but each person has to find that that way, that’s actually going to be helpful, like you say, not a distraction.

 

Kathryn Knowles  34:06

Well, yeah, it’s just because I always just feel like I’m just like, it’s being rude to me. It’s just that, hey, I’m actually working really hard and but yeah, I feel probably a good thing, you know, to start. But the thing is, is, depending upon how I track my exercise, I get bonus points with my insurance, so I can’t let take it off all the time. So it’s very, very frustrating. However, that’s again, a little segue, but I just thought I’d put it out there in case, if there’s anybody who’s out there, like my kin, who are getting frustrated with the wearables, telling them off, saying that they’re not exercising enough when they’re working really, really hard. Okay, well, the other thing as well that obviously, in terms of, I’m sure that we’ll have an AI element. So it seems that AI is kind of being here, there and everywhere in the insurance process. We’ve talked about claims and how it can help in terms of that early detection, which could almost be like a claims preventative. And I. Think it’s really important to say to people that’s not in it, because some people, and I have definitely had customers, say to me, oh, and shares will do anything. Aren’t there to to get out of sourcing a claim. They want me to be healthy so I don’t need to make a claim. And it’s a case of yes, because that is better for you as an individual. If you are healthy and don’t need to make a claim, then that is amazing. You don’t want to be somebody who’s had a cancer that’s so strong that you need to make a full critical illness claim. You don’t want to be someone who’s had a stroke and needs to make a full term IP claim because you can’t get back to work. You know, it’s we have these insurances here as a, as a, as a safeguard, in a sense, but we never, ever want to claim on them. So if anything can be done that can prevent things happening, that is a really positive thing. Yes, it does mean the insurer might not need to pay a claim, but it means you’re healthy, and you’ve got to, likely, depending on how long the policy is, you’ve got to a very, very good age without being ill. So we do have these preventative type things we’re just talking about there. But we also have when a claim has happened as well. And I know, especially in income protection rehabilitation, is is a huge thing, and I have to say, and you know, for people who are maybe a bit of a negative about the way that these things work, you know, I have been involved in some long term IP claims. And I have to say, it’s not just the insurer that’s involved. There are specific health organizations that are involved in managing those long term claims, and they have their oath, in terms of, you know, their medical oath, to look after people. And you know, I’ve been involved in it, where people have been saying, you know, sort of like, No, I’m going to get back to work. That’s it. I’m going back to work. I feel better. And the insurer and the health claims, people have said, no, please don’t you need at least another few months of not going back. We will continue to pay you. Please don’t go back. It’s going to make you worse. And the person’s completely ignored them. And you know, you’ve literally got this strange dynamic where you’d kind of think it’s the other way of the insurer kind of going, Oh, come on, go back to work. Go on. And actually the show going, No, please don’t. Kind of thing we want you to sort of like, be okay and be better. And obviously, if you manage this correctly, then you’ll be back to work full time, you know. And that’s a really, really good thing in terms, obviously, mental health and things like that. So what are we seeing and obviously that, I that was a lot of human involvement. I don’t know whether AI came into that or not, but where do we see AI coming in in stuff like these rehabilitation side of things? Yeah,

 

Lisa Balboa  37:37

I think there’s that. There’s definitely a role for AI, for health technologies, so just to focus on one use for wearables. So we had a case, yeah, if we go back around the globe, back to Australia, where we we looked at using a chest strap to monitor heart rate variability, so some cardiovascular health information as part of a guided exercise rehabilitation program to support a chronic fatigue related claimants and back to work. And we’re looking at uses also for certain types of mental health as well. So this is quite a structured program. It’s using that technology, but also there’s a health coach that goes along with that. So it’s a great partnership of sort of wearable technology, but also where they’re using the health technology, things like AI, but also human expertise to program that to actually help people step back to exercise and to recovery as much as possible. So that’s a really interesting use case. I think another interesting one is around we mentioned on mental health before, and yeah, a lot of IP claims these days are for for mental ill health, and there’s lots of digital mental health there apps out there. Some of them may help people. I think something interesting we found in our South Africa market is where an occupational therapist is actually recommending a particular app for that individual and checking in with them. It’s a lot more likely that that tool is going to be used and that it’s going to be helpful for that individual. So sometimes you think of apps as very separate to yet the worker that maybe an occupational therapist or rehabilitation expert would do. But there’s opportunities actually for for these apps to be used, and making sure you have that expert advice from people really specialized in this area. That’s when you get the best results, I think, with the will of AI and really making sure to blend that into all the amazing work that we do as individuals, all the expertise that’s out there, whether it’s for claims, for underwriting, for health care, just using that AI technology and integrating it into what we do. I think that’s where I’m most excited. It’s not about replacing any of the human expertise. It’s just about adding one extra tool into our tool belt to help people whether it comes to doing their job, whether it comes to getting insurance, whether it comes to rehabilitation, getting people healthier. I think AI is a force for good, but. Needs to be used in the right way, and really compliment everything that we do already, or the experts do across the industry already. I think

 

Kathryn Knowles  40:07

that sounds absolutely fantastic, and it’s and I’m eager to see, given my reluctance, I’m so eager to see how this could help. You know, especially, I think, you know the underwriting, you know the the claim side of things, helping people. And like you say, just thinking about that like an app with an occupational therapist and just having a check in date, how just mentally that would kind of like give extra encouragement to sort of actually be involved in it. You know, if you’re just given an app and go away, then it’s just self managed, isn’t it, in a sense, and you could easily stop doing but if you know that there’s someone there, there’s a bit of accountability to it, you’re much more likely to do it and and it’s great to hear that there’s just all these innovative, different ways that are being looked at and kind of tested and trialed all around the world, you know, based upon different cultures and what works with them, what then can be maybe adapted to things for us in the UK. I think it’s, it is exciting, even even though I’m still still nervous about it all. It is very, very exciting and great to have all that insight from you and just, you know, hearing how we might, you know, at some point, be able to, sort of, like, merge some of these things into the UK market. I think that’s got to be really, really positive, and just make sure that things start moving in the right direction, so that we get the right kind of customer service for everybody, right from the start journey of wanting to just know about and access insurers right through to that there’s actually been a claim, and what can we do long term to help this person? So thank you so much for all of your insight. Lee, so it’s always great to have you on because you’ve just got such a wealth of knowledge that it’s incredible. It’s bit mind blowing with it. Oh,

 

Lisa Balboa  41:49

my pleasure. I always enjoy catching up with you. Kathryn, pleasure to be able to share some thoughts. And yeah, very excited to see where this technology will will go.

 

Kathryn Knowles  41:57

Brilliant. So next time I have Kate Baldry, she’s going to be joining me, and we’re going to discuss insights and developments that we are seeing in sort of like early onset colorectal cancer diagnosis. And it’s definitely one I think everybody should be really, really listening to. The stats are quite intense. If you want to get CPD certificate, thanks to our sponsors, next gen planners, please do feel free to visit the website, practical hyphen protection.co.uk, and you can access all of our episodes there and on all major podcast platforms. So thank you very much, Lisa, and I’ll speak to you soon. You

Transcript Disclaimer:

Episodes of the Practical Protection Podcast include a transcript of the episode’s audio. The text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record.

We often discuss health and medical conditions in relation to protection insurance and underwriting, always consult with a healthcare professional if you are concerned about any medical conditions and symptoms we have covered in any episode.

Episode 11 - AI and Insurance

Hi everyone, Lisa Balboa is back and she is sharing her insights into how AI is helping insurance across the world. I am quite a reluctant AI enthusiast as I’m always nervous it means less people involved in decisions, but Lisa brilliantly explains how AI is working alongside people to improve access to insurance and better claims experiences. 

With insights from Australia, China, South Africa and America, Lisa shares different approaches to insurance outside of the UK market. 

The key takeaways:

  • AI can be used to proactively look through medical records of declined applications, to see if the ‘computer says no’ has been too harsh
  • AI can be develop and grow over time, so that it can make more automated decisions, freeing up underwriters to focus on the more complex cases 
  • AI can play a fundamental role in preventative healthcare by spotting early changes in health 

Next time I will be joined by Kate Baldry, Research and Development Underwriter at Hannover Re, talking about her insights into colo-rectal cancer.  

Remember, if you are listening to this as part of your work, you can claim a CPD certificate on our website, thanks to our sponsors NextGen Planners.

RETURN TO VIEW ALL EPISODES

 

Kathryn Knowles  00:11

Hi everybody. We are on season 10, Episode 11, and today I have Lisa Balboa back with me. Hi, Lisa, hi Kathryn, great to be here. Lovely to have you back with us. Lisa is here to share her amazing actuarial insights into how AI is helping to shape the future of insurance. This is the practical protection podcast. So I

 

Kathryn Knowles  00:42

think I want to start off by saying it's going to be quite an interesting dynamic on this podcast, because I'm quite a reluctant AI enthusiast. I'm really, really nervous of AI. I'm like, I watch the Black Mirror episodes and things like that. And you know, kind of thing, you know, the TV shows with AI started taking over the world. I get really, really nervous about it. But in general, for insurance, if I just bring it back to like a reality for now, yeah, I do get a bit nervous because I start to think, Well, is it going to stop the need for people, how is it going to work with people who are, like higher risk, who maybe sometimes need that little bit of a human, empathetic approach to some of the underwriting, the reasons behind certain disclosures, things like that. And then on the other side of things, we're gonna have Lisa, who is super AI enthusiast. I remember when I first met you, Lisa, obviously, we were working with the IFA mental health working group, but then it was, we're just talking about this as a lucid a couple of years ago, and you were there, and you had this ring that had this was doing all these metrics on you. And we were talked about it as well. And you talked about these amazing apps on phones that would like help underwriting and everything. And it was impossible not to get sort of caught up in your enthusiasm as well. So I think you're the really pro AI person here, and I'm kind of like being, I'm sorry, jumping on the happiness that you have for it, if that makes sense,

 

Lisa Balboa  02:02

yeah, absolutely. Kathryn, I'm always really interested to embrace technology see how it can apply to what we do back in life and health insurance. I totally understand where you're coming from, though, like with AI, it's just advancing so rapidly and there's so much uncertainty that I think it's really important that we see, you know, what are some practical examples where this technology is really creating value for this industry? So super excited to be here and unpack this with you,

 

Kathryn Knowles  02:29

definitely. And I like the idea of, you know, software, we're doing it about the practical things, and not where I'm in my head going off to, like the crazy TV shows and like films and stuff like that, but we're going to talk about where it actually matters and what it's doing. So to start off with, because so many areas that we could discuss, obviously, I know we've picked some that we think are going to be the most interesting, and where there's so much stuff going on and emerging at the moment. And I think, you know, obviously our listeners tend to be people who are working Protection Insurance space. One of the key areas that we have issues with is medical reports. I think that would be probably the bane of most advisors, existences. I'm sure it is the bane of GPS existences, insurers, underwriters, everybody's just like, oh, for medical records. And, you know, we have such a mix. We have the paper records, which can have their benefits sometimes over electronic and vice versa for the electronic, the electronic ones can be done incredibly quickly. It's so so smart. The way the systems work really speed up, in a sense, the underwriting times, in case, in the sense of getting the medical information to the underwriters. But then the underwriters have hundreds of pages sometimes to look through, rather than just like a eight page handwritten one from a GP. So it'd be good, because we still see issues in this space as advisors. So like I had one the other day, where I know, with the electronic reports, it's meant to be a case of, well, once it's with the GP, they just press a button, really, and it goes off. And so it can be as quick as a week, but I still had one the other day that it was three weeks before the GP even looked at pressing that button. And you know, obviously we do have to be so, so conscious and respectful of the fact that GPs are incredibly busy. And obviously an insurance report isn't probably on the height of their agenda versus the patients they are seeing day in day out. But what's happening in this space at the moment? Now, you said, sort of like help with the this medical side of things? Yeah,

 

Lisa Balboa  04:27

it's a really fast, moving and really fascinating space. So totally resonate with all the challenges that you were mentioning. In my role. I'm really lucky. I get to see across the globe how different markets are doing things and using not just paper records, but going beyond that, so tapping into electronic health record data, where it's available and where it's able to be used for insurance purposes. So just to take a concrete example, in Australia, we have a case where we're able to support insurers to use electronic health. Health records data to support customers to get access to cover. So it's a bit similar to what you described, a customer might be applying for life insurance, and maybe traditionally, they would have even been declined for life insurance, where that quote comes back, or maybe they would need to get more follow up evidence, such as those paper records that you were mentioning, which you can say which can take quite a bit of time. So instead of that, the customer is then asked to consent if they would like their electronic health data to be shared with the insurer. So that's things like, you know, the data from the the GP, the data from where they visited, the hospitals, different health data that's there, but rather than being in a paper format, it's available electronically to share very quickly with the life insurer. So based on that, the life insurer can then get access to that data much quicker, drill down into it and see, can that person where they previously would have been declined for life insurance? Can they actually get access to some life insurance cover, either on the same terms or maybe with a reduced sum assured. So I think it's a really positive use for this electronic health data, just to put more options out there where someone would have been declined before but is willing to actually tap in and share that data that they have available electronically, and then consent to give that to the insurer. They can then, in many cases, get access to insurance from that insurer, when previously they wouldn't have been able to get that opportunity. I was

 

Kathryn Knowles  06:29

gonna say, I think that's really fascinating, because for me, I kind of in my mind, and especially the way we sometimes see some sort of like applications work in the UK, you kind of is that kind of what you think is a computer saying, No, you kind of think is all of this going ahead to basically just get people out of the system as quick as possible, that the insurer doesn't want to ensure that's sometimes the impression that you can can get from an advisor and from a consumer point of View. And what I find that really fascinating, the fact that actually the AI side of thing is going to be used to, it's so proactive in a sense, in a sense of, it's not a case of like, let's get everyone out the way. It's actually proactively going right? Initially, the computer says no, but we want to proactively see if we can do more. And I wouldn't have thought of AI being used in, like, the decline space. So that's that's really interesting, that it's been done from a completely different mindset than I would have originally thought, yeah. And

 

Lisa Balboa  07:32

I think what's really interesting about this example, too, I mean, is almost like the automatic system is what said no originally, yeah. And then here you get this electronic data. And the way you start to build up the use of AI in this space is actually in the beginning, to keep the underwriter in the loop. So in the beginning, it's a case of getting that electronic data back, and the underwriter can look into that in detail and build up that confidence for what to then program into the automated system to set those future rules. So it's actually a really carefully considered process. We don't just let AI loose on the electronic health data, and if it goes and makes a decision. We work in such a technically complex space, and medical conditions are really complex and overlapping, so having that process where you start to get the data, build the confidence and then program it into this system can actually lead to, like, you say, really positive outcomes for customers, like, so that data that's available

 

Kathryn Knowles  08:27

Absolutely, and I like the idea this still needs to be a person there that, you know, there's, there's still that person looking at it and you know, it's, it's just nice to know that this works absolutely, giving an extra look from, From from, like, a couple of different ways, though, isn't it? So the person might look at something and say, well, actually, the computer has maybe been a bit favorable here, because we've got this, this, and here, I need to teach it more about these sometimes the core, then it'll become morbidities, isn't it? That's a word for it. But then we would then have the other side of it. We're like, Oh, do you know what? I think the computer's been a bit harsh, actually. So it's just really lovely to know that it isn't just being let loose, in a sense, and really intriguing to think of what that could then, in a sense, how it would have I can't even imagine how it would evolve to the next stage, in a sense, of once, you know, once this level is done, and this is all kind of like done really smoothly, there'll be the next step around this. I can't even imagine what that would be, absolutely blows my mind. But AI is also starting to be used quite a bit in the sort of in distribution and sometimes in the way that insurance processes work. So what kind of things are we seeing in this space? And I know, sorry, some of the areas you're talking about. And I have to say, I'm seriously I'm so jealous of all the travel that you do, and all this insight that you get in terms of the global side of things. It's absolutely fascinating, but it's so, so relevant, because I know you're going to talk about lots of different areas, and it's incredible just to see where each kind of market is taking things, and how everybody's kind of like intertwining and learning from each

 

Lisa Balboa  09:57

other. Yeah, you're so right. So I love visiting. In all the all the different markets, and all of them using technology in in slightly different way. And I think there's so much opportunity for learning. So for example, I was in China recently, and there we we're seeing advisors embracing this technology to actually support them to connect with their customers. So they have what they call online merge offline platforms. So it's essentially a digital first approach to distribution. So the customer will come along and they will be invited to follow the insurer's account on social media. They use WeChat in China, but it's effectively that their social media platform, and actually there's some value exchange for the customer that often, a lot of the insurers will give a free gift, maybe a free dental checkup, a health assessment, as an incentive for them to actually connect with that insurance company, which is great. And one big problem that they're facing in the market there is the number of insurance advisors have shrunk. And that's a big problem because, although a few years ago, we thought maybe director distribution for life insurance was going to be the next big thing. I mean, that never took off. Our industry is really complex, as you know, people hugely invite value having those advisors then, and they want that advice to help them buy that life insurance policy that's going to fit their needs. Yeah. So what this platform does is it can help to smart match an advisor to that person that's likely to be the best advisor to help them the best advisor to build a rapport for them, because by following that account on social media, they're actively consenting to share their information with the insurer, and it will benefit them. They're getting that free gift. They're also going to get a relevant advisor that can help them with their financial protection needs. So it's a way that the advisor can then have access to this digital platform, and the advisor will see a signal if that person's financial needs change, maybe their family is growing, maybe they've moved job, it can send an alert to the advisor to check in with that customer, to review their coverage. So it's a great way where a lot of advisors have have left the industry. People are effectively left now without an advisor. So this is a really positive way to help the next generation of advisors, and the advisors still in the industry, connect back with those customers and make sure their insurance cover is still relevant for them?

 

Kathryn Knowles  12:21

Absolutely, I was going to say, I think that is so, so important, especially in the protection insurance space. So we get a complete range of different people listening to the podcast, obviously. But what's important to know is, in protection insurance, if you, if you are just working in the this in kind of assurance, there's no requirement for you to keep in touch with your clients, and there's no requirement to do reviews or anything like that. Obviously, a lot of us do do that because it's the right thing to do by the clients. And obviously, from a business point of view, it also makes a lot of sense. But when you speak to say, like, investment pension advisors or mortgage advisors, mortgage advisors will absolutely have like, a review time because the mortgage rate changes. And the people working in pensions and investments, they will have an annual check in, because they have to have an annual check in. So they see this. But people in some areas of advice in the UK, there's, there's nothing to say, reach out. So I mean, what we tend to do is we reach out to clients periodically, more certain, like, have you, you know, have you stopped smoking? Have you got a different mortgage? Have you changed jobs? Has your family grown, as you know, and you sort of, you do these different things to see these triggers. But this would be brilliant, because it's using the computer systems, in a sense, to, just as you say, to do those automatic alerts. So it's less resources for advisors, which I imagine that could be why a lot of advisors don't do it because of the fact that it's the resource. So that would be really, really interesting to, sort of like, see how that works over time and and how that could potentially be used in the UK. It's I was gonna say, because it's strange again, there isn't. Except, you know what I'm like with technology. I don't allow my apps to do anything. I tried every now and then, I'll make sure I go into the settings and make sure they're not letting everything, everybody know everything about me. I'm terrible, Lisa. I really am. I put in fake dates of birth.

 

Lisa Balboa  14:12

I get, like, be willing to trust the technology. I do think in Europe, you know, it's likely to be maybe a separate app where you can then build up that relationship over time, share what you're comfortable to share with the advisor on a more proactive basis, all the advances in technology we see needs to be adapted to each local market. So I think, like you said, there's great scope for this tool to help advisors and help customers get the relevant support at the right time, as things are changing for them, it needs to be an active process. It's totally normal in China and the process that I described, yes, and then for something like that in the UK, just to find that that correct way that the customer will will want to have that ongoing relationship with the advisor, so that they can see the value coming through, I think that that's the most important thing. It needs to be valuable to both

 

Kathryn Knowles  14:58

parties. Absolutely, I can just. Imagine though my advisor be like, right, hang on a minute. I've got four dates of birth for you across different things. What's what's going on, what's your actual birthday? But also, we are seeing quite a lot Amy in terms of, like, the pre underwriting, in terms of AI, I know that there's an insurer that we use in the international space, and part of their pre underwriting is just that they scan your face, in a sense. And so there's quite a lot happening in that area, isn't there as well?

 

Lisa Balboa  15:28

Yeah, I think this is a really interesting space where there's lots of opportunities for AI as well. If you think about pre underwriting customers and advisors, they want to be more informed about what products are going to be available for this person, and so there's a lot now with different health data, whether it's from from apps or tapping into, you know, the person actually declaring some of their health conditions and seeing what product might be a fit. We're starting to see some developments when it comes to health focus AI. So there's a lot going on in the medical space using AI to help people understand their symptoms, what conditions they have, there's starting to be talk about twisting that to see, can we actually use that to support pre underwriting for customers as well? Because ultimately, it will help people be better informed around what products to pursue, and it can help the the insurer as well when it comes to getting the right fit for the customer in terms of the products, and, of course, for advisors to help you be more informed in terms of what's available. So yeah, I think it's quite an exciting space. It's where you hear all about these chat bots in the news. When it comes to asking things like about health, there could be potential to twist that and actually apply it back to our industry, to to make even more efficient processes when it comes to something like pre underwriting. That sounds

 

Kathryn Knowles  16:47

absolutely fantastic. It's reminding me again, I've gone back to lucid again from a couple of years ago. I can't remember the the person's name was a doctor's cardiologist, and he was talking about how there were, he was developing technology, like, in a sense, almost like on an iPad that, you know, medical students could take around and use to and it would be diagnosing heart conditions and things like that. And it just, it was absolutely fascinating. You can definitely see where these kinds of things are going to be so, so useful. And I think it's that, like you're saying in health space, but we see the advancements in the health space. So like with that, you I don't know if you'd necessarily think of that as in, like, Well, how would that translate back to insurance? But it's just all about making it work and developments, and then seeing those offshoots that could suddenly bring out even more insight. So yeah,

 

Lisa Balboa  17:33

and I think from a personal perspective, like, I'm quite optimistic, like in the health space, about some of these tools supporting doctors and the next generation of doctors, particularly where it's a less common condition, it could just help them to think and spark the way of thinking around Have you considered this, this condition, it might be something less common, but that could be the cause. And again, I'm sure there's applications that we can then apply back to insurance that particularly where, as you were talking about comorbidities earlier, people might have complex comorbid health conditions, and that there can be opportunities to leverage some of these tools to help unpack that a bit, you know, with it, with the human guiding that so almost like a thinking and a sparring partner for for that expert doctor or expert underwriter, to actually help them drill deeper and Consider a broader range of things about that individual.

 

Kathryn Knowles  18:22

Absolutely, it's just, it's all fascinating. But I think if we go towards the back, towards sort of like the underwriting, sort of like and like the practical aspects of it for advisors at the moment, you know, there's, I think everyone in the industry is frustrated with underwriting turnaround times. Now, I say that from an advisor point of view. I also hear it with account managers in the insurers. I hear it with the underwriters in the insurers. You know, there is just, there is so, so many cases going through. Obviously, we've got huge amounts of people who are going to go straight through on online systems, you know, huge, huge amounts. But the very fact that we're sometimes getting, you know, you know, sometimes it shows we're easily getting up to 10 to 10 days, two weeks before an underwriter can look at an application. It just shows that there are huge amounts of people with medical conditions applying for insurance, and there's clearly huge amounts of data that needs to be gone through and and at the moment, it's not really working. I mean, obviously a perfect solution right at this moment would be probably, for the amount of underwriters in the industry to, like, double. I mean, I think that would be, like, really, really ideal, in the sense of just, it's just impossible for them to go through everything they're going through in the amount of hours that they have. And, you know, it would be brilliant if there was more and more underwriters. But, I mean, that's that's not a quick thing to do. Obviously, being trained as an underwriter takes a lot of time. It is. There's so much to learn in terms of the medical side of things, in terms of the insurance, in terms of the the manuals that the actuaries put together and and obviously those guidances and things like that. And then learning, obviously those. Crossovers as well, you know. And obviously it gets so, so complicated. And AI clearly has a place at this. And I think again, this is again where I get a little bit cautious, because I don't want personal underwriters to go away, in the sense that I really like personal underwriters as well. So it's certainly not a comment on underwriters when I say we're all getting frustrated in terms of turnaround times, I know that they're frustrated as well, but it almost feels like it's at the point as well where we've just go for everybody. It's a case of, well, what's happening right now isn't working, and something needs to happen. And the something is either you change the underwriting questions so you actually just don't insure as many people, which nobody wants that. I don't believe you get more underwriters, or we start to look more at technology. So how is AI starting to help in the in the actual underwriting process?

 

Lisa Balboa  20:52

Yeah, I think there's some really great uses here. So we spoke a bit about electronic health data. We don't have that in the in the UK, like you said, what we do have in the UK is lots of notes, lots of GTP reports, a lot of handwritten paper records. And there is a role for AI that can help underwriters to analyze this information in a quicker, more structured way. So we're starting to see quite a few insurtechs emerging dedicated to to this exact problem, which is, how can we support underwriters to do their Manual reviews in a quicker, more efficient way? So maybe the AI can flag a clear decline cause very quickly to to the underwriter, and that will free up their time to then dive deeper into the more complex cases. So if the AI can be used to fast track the really clear, clear, cut, clean cases and then the very obvious decline cases, without that person having to read through hundreds and hundreds of pages. That really means we can free up time for those more complex, gray cases where the underwriter needs to dive deeper. So there's a lot going on, a lot of insurers piloting this sort of technology. I think what, what's really important is efficiency, but but also decision quality. So a big focus on making sure the quality of the decisions are unaffected, and that we can really get those efficiency gains that that we can bring about, and that will take time, because we're adopting into processes new technology. So people need to get comfortable with that. The technology needs to be adapted in a way that actually feels natural for us as humans to use and integrate into our processes. So I think it will be a journey, but it's a fantastic example of how AI can actually be used to improve efficiency. And like you say, it's not about reducing jobs. People have a lot of work that they that they need to do, and there's an overload of cases. So actually, using technology to get through more cases and spend more time on the complex ones, I think is a really great use case for AI that's in development,

 

Kathryn Knowles  22:58

absolutely, and I think we're probably going to see, because I know there's so much talk about the younger generations and trying to get them into sort of like buying insurance and understand the value of it, and just think about it then, especially for the UK well, because obviously I'm thinking of my children, my children, all of their health records, everything will be electronic. But for myself, a lot of the stuff in the past wouldn't have been electronic, you know. And I think because I have had, you know, where I've asked for my data, I think it's all been scanned on now and everything. So it is there, but there must be, I'm assuming, millions of people in the UK who don't have full electronic records, which is what makes this harder. But as as we get to that stage where more and more of the population, because of the obviously, people without the electronic ones, we will be getting older and passing away. The younger ones will have electronic records. It should just naturally make this work quite nicely, shouldn't it? I think, yeah,

 

Lisa Balboa  23:53

and I think there'll be a big role to play for the insurance industry to work on. How can we access that, that data as an industry, the electronic data, and that could take still a few years to get access to that electronic data. There's work already going on in that space to see how could we get access to that data in an efficient way as an industry, and just to really explain the positive use cases that there is for being able to quickly share that electronic data. But like you say, there's still going to be a lot of paper based records that are still going to need to be analyzed. So it's not an either or. I think we need a combination of approaches when it comes to this topic to find the most efficient way for customers to understand what insurance products they can purchase. Absolutely, I know you've got, I think an example in America you're going to take us all around the world, aren't you yes to the states yet, but this is a great example. So in the US, yeah, as far as I know, they don't have a they don't have a national health health system. They don't have a centralized electronic health record. But even so, we're still able to use laboratory data. So there are some big laboratories in the US. We. Where they would have the data for people's like, for example, blood test results, cholesterol results, those sorts of things. So we've actually been able to partner up with a big laboratory providers to accelerate underwriting for people applying for life insurance. So when a customer comes to apply for life insurance, they can consent to share their laboratory data with the insurer, and about 70% of people. So 70 out of 100 people applying for life cover will have some sort of laboratory data available about them through the system. And what's really great is of the people with data available, yeah, 85% so 85 out of the 100 people that have data available on them can get an instant decision. So rather than needing to go for more lab tests, for example, which costs time, costs money for the insurer, and it takes a lot of time for individuals. And I don't know about you, I don't particularly like going for blood tests. So this is an alternative. It's a way to tap into a blood test that maybe that person did a year ago, a few years ago, to get that data back and actually get people an instant decision on the life cover. So that's really good. We have more than a half a million applicants that have gone through that system in the US. So it's really positive, and can have a great impact. Just to get people life insurance cover sooner. That

 

Kathryn Knowles  26:26

sounds fantastic. I'm so sorry I muted myself. You might be able to hear in the background my cockapoo for whatever reason. I think he thinks there's somebody nearby the house and has gone on alert. So if I suddenly mute myself, I'm very, very sorry. But no, I think you're absolutely right. And yes, I'm not a fan of blood tests either. And so I think that's absolutely fantastic. And you know, I've had quite a few clients with white coat syndrome as well where, you know, they've not been able to have a medical in a sense, because of the fact that they needed to have one in terms of the amount of insurance that they were going to go for. So it was like trying to see if it can be done in line with other ones, if it if they're having like a regular, like yearly review, do you wait until that happens so that it's not putting them through it multiple times and things like that? Because then obviously, as well, with that kind of situation, completely throw off everything else. If you've got white coat syndrome, your blood pressure is going to go through the roof as well. So it's but, yeah, I think anything like that just sounds, sounds really, really useful. The the least that we're putting people through to get the insurance has got to be a positive thing. Um, because it's easier,

 

Lisa Balboa  27:29

we can make it the better, right? Well, exactly,

 

Kathryn Knowles  27:32

because you know people always you know in terms of, like, the things you know, people you know generally want to know that their pensions working well. They want to know. They want the mortgage, they want the travel insurance, and when it comes to life insurance and the other protection insurances, it's the kind of thing that you know people, in a sense, know that they need. But you you they don't want to necessarily be thinking about it. You know, we're talking about death and very, very serious ill health, and it's just even get people into that conversation in the start is, is tricky. Sometimes, you know, because, and especially with the younger generation, because, as we all know, and when we're young, absolutely, we're indestructible. And this is just, you know, stuff like, that's just old people, things, you know. And I think you know, when probably age of 30, it would be classed as old for those people. And, you know, and I'm just, I'm just crying. Kathryn, I'm old. I know I'm crying a little inside, because obviously, I just turned 40. So it's just like, okay, had one. I have to say, there's a thing on social media. I'm going to complete segue here where there's like, people doing this, saying about, it's like a David Attenborough over, speaking over and going like, and this is the older person who doesn't know how to do anything, and it's just people in an office, and it's someone who's really young in the office, and and then there's like, me sort of like, just, sort of like imagining you a dinosaur. But I have to say, as well, Lisa, I didn't get over the fact that somebody that we employ one is born in 2000 and her mum was younger than me, that absolutely destroyed me. I was just like, I can't speak to you for a little bit. Just give me a day.

 

Lisa Balboa  29:12

You're very young. Kathryn, my husband turns 40 this year as well. So,

 

Kathryn Knowles  29:20

yeah, exactly. We're young. We're still young. I actually feel quite empowered now that I'm Fauci I kind of feel like everyone be like, Do you know what? She's been here quite a while now she knows her stuff. You know? I feel like it's given like a new badge of, sort of like, Yeah, I know what I'm on about, no messing about, no back talks.

 

Lisa Balboa  29:37

Kathryn, you could have an extra badge on LinkedIn. Exactly,

 

Kathryn Knowles  29:40

exactly, right. Sorry, taking us on the right segue there. So in terms of things, obviously brilliant to hear that, but we always know the main thing is the claim. You know, the whole point of insurance is what is going to be that eventual thing that we don't want to happen. But this is the whole. Point of why we're doing it, and we're seeing so much in terms of claims management, where, you know, claims can go through absolutely beautifully and be really fast, really efficient. We are seeing as well the issues in the fact of, not only are the there's probably more applicants to underwriters in terms of turn on time, but we're probably, we're starting to see more claims in terms of claims to claims decision makers. I know that's not the right term, but you know, I mean in terms of, you know, who is going to be deciding and there's, again, they are so, so so much going on, and there's only so much resources and time a person has to review these things. So what are we seeing in the AI space in terms of claims?

 

Lisa Balboa  30:45

Yeah, I think we're seeing some really positive things. So even prior to claim that, there's quite a lot that AI and health technology can help with. So we're seeing some really positive uses around helping people with health management, so using AI to actually let that person know what's the next best action they could take to improve their health. So maybe doing exercise more regularly, eating certain types of food. There's so much data out there, like for those using different apps, like you mentioned, I have a smart ring that's giving me loads of data as well. So much data. But concretely, AI can help people to know what is that next best thing they can do, and also the next best realistic thing they can do. It's easy for smoker. You could say, stop smoking, but that's not an easy thing for them to do. So what's the next best thing that you know also they could easily incorporate into their daily routine as well to improve their health? Yeah, and we're seeing technology going beyond that as well, so also using different apps or data analytics to help people with earlier diagnosis or earlier detection of different health conditions like heart arrhythmias or skin cancer, or even when it comes To the mental health side, also helping people to understand that they may have mental health sooner and intervene earlier. So all of that helps to reduce the pressure on claims. So that's already very positive. You said we're yeah that there could be high claims volume. So all of this technology can help to reduce that for some people. And also that's obviously very positive for that individual, right? Better Health for people, yeah, what's not to like about that? So I think that's really positive already. Yeah, absolutely, I

 

Kathryn Knowles  32:30

have to say, though, in terms of wearables, now, I saw Alan, my husband also has one of those rings now, and he absolutely loves it, you know, obviously, it's telling him how much he's sleeping and all this kind of stuff, which he's, you know, obviously, again, is a really, really big factor in terms of long term health. And I struggle with wearables, because I wouldn't, I wouldn't like to wear things on a night time, and I said, so I could wear them during the day. And I do have a smart watch, but I have to say, I get really ticked off with my smart watch, because I tend to go swimming. I know you're a swimmer too, Lisa, so I do swimming and I do Pilates I've now, and obviously I do stuff in the gym as well. I mix it up in terms of, like, cardio and weight, you know, strength training, things like that. And it really ticks me off, because I'll do pilates and I'll be like, 1015, minutes in, and it says to me, have you actually still exercising? And I'm like, Oh, just go away. You know, yes, I am exercising. I'm in the middle of doing a downward pike. So no, my arms not moving everywhere. That's not what Pilates does, you know, kind of thing. And it really annoys me sometimes, and it makes me feel like I'm not working hard enough and, and I know it's just one of those things that gets not true.

 

Lisa Balboa  33:40

I mean, for me personally, now, when I do Pilates, I don't wear any wearable. I just add it into that afterwards. You can still add in your exercise afterwards to keep track, but like you say, that you don't have that, that distraction when you're doing it, and it could be vibrating or feeling uncomfortable. So there's loads of different ways to use this technology to help others, whether it's an app or whether it's a wearable, but each person has to find that that way, that's actually going to be helpful, like you say, not a distraction.

 

Kathryn Knowles  34:06

Well, yeah, it's just because I always just feel like I'm just like, it's being rude to me. It's just that, hey, I'm actually working really hard and but yeah, I feel probably a good thing, you know, to start. But the thing is, is, depending upon how I track my exercise, I get bonus points with my insurance, so I can't let take it off all the time. So it's very, very frustrating. However, that's again, a little segue, but I just thought I'd put it out there in case, if there's anybody who's out there, like my kin, who are getting frustrated with the wearables, telling them off, saying that they're not exercising enough when they're working really, really hard. Okay, well, the other thing as well that obviously, in terms of, I'm sure that we'll have an AI element. So it seems that AI is kind of being here, there and everywhere in the insurance process. We've talked about claims and how it can help in terms of that early detection, which could almost be like a claims preventative. And I. Think it's really important to say to people that's not in it, because some people, and I have definitely had customers, say to me, oh, and shares will do anything. Aren't there to to get out of sourcing a claim. They want me to be healthy so I don't need to make a claim. And it's a case of yes, because that is better for you as an individual. If you are healthy and don't need to make a claim, then that is amazing. You don't want to be somebody who's had a cancer that's so strong that you need to make a full critical illness claim. You don't want to be someone who's had a stroke and needs to make a full term IP claim because you can't get back to work. You know, it's we have these insurances here as a, as a, as a safeguard, in a sense, but we never, ever want to claim on them. So if anything can be done that can prevent things happening, that is a really positive thing. Yes, it does mean the insurer might not need to pay a claim, but it means you're healthy, and you've got to, likely, depending on how long the policy is, you've got to a very, very good age without being ill. So we do have these preventative type things we're just talking about there. But we also have when a claim has happened as well. And I know, especially in income protection rehabilitation, is is a huge thing, and I have to say, and you know, for people who are maybe a bit of a negative about the way that these things work, you know, I have been involved in some long term IP claims. And I have to say, it's not just the insurer that's involved. There are specific health organizations that are involved in managing those long term claims, and they have their oath, in terms of, you know, their medical oath, to look after people. And you know, I've been involved in it, where people have been saying, you know, sort of like, No, I'm going to get back to work. That's it. I'm going back to work. I feel better. And the insurer and the health claims, people have said, no, please don't you need at least another few months of not going back. We will continue to pay you. Please don't go back. It's going to make you worse. And the person's completely ignored them. And you know, you've literally got this strange dynamic where you'd kind of think it's the other way of the insurer kind of going, Oh, come on, go back to work. Go on. And actually the show going, No, please don't. Kind of thing we want you to sort of like, be okay and be better. And obviously, if you manage this correctly, then you'll be back to work full time, you know. And that's a really, really good thing in terms, obviously, mental health and things like that. So what are we seeing and obviously that, I that was a lot of human involvement. I don't know whether AI came into that or not, but where do we see AI coming in in stuff like these rehabilitation side of things? Yeah,

 

Lisa Balboa  37:37

I think there's that. There's definitely a role for AI, for health technologies, so just to focus on one use for wearables. So we had a case, yeah, if we go back around the globe, back to Australia, where we we looked at using a chest strap to monitor heart rate variability, so some cardiovascular health information as part of a guided exercise rehabilitation program to support a chronic fatigue related claimants and back to work. And we're looking at uses also for certain types of mental health as well. So this is quite a structured program. It's using that technology, but also there's a health coach that goes along with that. So it's a great partnership of sort of wearable technology, but also where they're using the health technology, things like AI, but also human expertise to program that to actually help people step back to exercise and to recovery as much as possible. So that's a really interesting use case. I think another interesting one is around we mentioned on mental health before, and yeah, a lot of IP claims these days are for for mental ill health, and there's lots of digital mental health there apps out there. Some of them may help people. I think something interesting we found in our South Africa market is where an occupational therapist is actually recommending a particular app for that individual and checking in with them. It's a lot more likely that that tool is going to be used and that it's going to be helpful for that individual. So sometimes you think of apps as very separate to yet the worker that maybe an occupational therapist or rehabilitation expert would do. But there's opportunities actually for for these apps to be used, and making sure you have that expert advice from people really specialized in this area. That's when you get the best results, I think, with the will of AI and really making sure to blend that into all the amazing work that we do as individuals, all the expertise that's out there, whether it's for claims, for underwriting, for health care, just using that AI technology and integrating it into what we do. I think that's where I'm most excited. It's not about replacing any of the human expertise. It's just about adding one extra tool into our tool belt to help people whether it comes to doing their job, whether it comes to getting insurance, whether it comes to rehabilitation, getting people healthier. I think AI is a force for good, but. Needs to be used in the right way, and really compliment everything that we do already, or the experts do across the industry already. I think

 

Kathryn Knowles  40:07

that sounds absolutely fantastic, and it's and I'm eager to see, given my reluctance, I'm so eager to see how this could help. You know, especially, I think, you know the underwriting, you know the the claim side of things, helping people. And like you say, just thinking about that like an app with an occupational therapist and just having a check in date, how just mentally that would kind of like give extra encouragement to sort of actually be involved in it. You know, if you're just given an app and go away, then it's just self managed, isn't it, in a sense, and you could easily stop doing but if you know that there's someone there, there's a bit of accountability to it, you're much more likely to do it and and it's great to hear that there's just all these innovative, different ways that are being looked at and kind of tested and trialed all around the world, you know, based upon different cultures and what works with them, what then can be maybe adapted to things for us in the UK. I think it's, it is exciting, even even though I'm still still nervous about it all. It is very, very exciting and great to have all that insight from you and just, you know, hearing how we might, you know, at some point, be able to, sort of, like, merge some of these things into the UK market. I think that's got to be really, really positive, and just make sure that things start moving in the right direction, so that we get the right kind of customer service for everybody, right from the start journey of wanting to just know about and access insurers right through to that there's actually been a claim, and what can we do long term to help this person? So thank you so much for all of your insight. Lee, so it's always great to have you on because you've just got such a wealth of knowledge that it's incredible. It's bit mind blowing with it. Oh,

 

Lisa Balboa  41:49

my pleasure. I always enjoy catching up with you. Kathryn, pleasure to be able to share some thoughts. And yeah, very excited to see where this technology will will go.

 

Kathryn Knowles  41:57

Brilliant. So next time I have Kate Baldry, she's going to be joining me, and we're going to discuss insights and developments that we are seeing in sort of like early onset colorectal cancer diagnosis. And it's definitely one I think everybody should be really, really listening to. The stats are quite intense. If you want to get CPD certificate, thanks to our sponsors, next gen planners, please do feel free to visit the website, practical hyphen protection.co.uk, and you can access all of our episodes there and on all major podcast platforms. So thank you very much, Lisa, and I'll speak to you soon. You

Transcript Disclaimer:

Episodes of the Practical Protection Podcast include a transcript of the episode's audio. The text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record.

We often discuss health and medical conditions in relation to protection insurance and underwriting, always consult with a healthcare professional if you are concerned about any medical conditions and symptoms we have covered in any episode.

Episodes

Bowel Cancer and Me - Phil Jeynes
Episode 13 – Bowel Cancer and Me

July 10, 2025

Early Onset Colo Rectal Cancer with Kate Baldry, Hannover Re
Episode 12 – Early Onset Colo-Rectal-Cancer

July 5, 2025

IHT Case Studies with Kathryn Knowles
Episode 10 – IHT Case Studies

May 29, 2025

Chronic Fatigue Syndrome with Kathryn Knowles and Alan Knowles
Episode 9 – Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

May 15, 2025

Cigarettes and alcohol with Kathryn Knowles and Alan Knowles
Episode 8 – Cigarettes & Alcohol

May 1, 2025

International Protection with Lee Doran and Kathryn Knowles
Episode 7 – International Protection

April 17, 2025

Jo Miller and Kathryn Knowles, discussing income protection
Episode 6 – IPTF 2025

April 3, 2025

High BMI life insurance, critical illness cover and income protection
Episode 5 – High BMI

March 20, 2025

Simplified Income Protection with Kathryn Knowles
Episode 4 – Simplified Income Protection

March 6, 2025

Social Medial Influencers and Income Protection, Kathryn Knowles and Alan Knowles
Episode 3 – Social Media Influencers and Income Protection

February 20, 2025