Practical Protection

Practical Protection

On Posted on by Practical Protection to podcast, Season 10, Uncategorized

Episode 8 – Cigarettes & Alcohol

Hi everyone, we have Alan Knowles back with us and we are taking a look at how lifestyles can affect options and pricing of  life insurance, critical illness cover and income protection. Being a smoker usually doubles your premiums for protection insurance, as the stats show that you are far more likely to make a claim on the insurances. Not only this, but being a smoker can lead to your applications being declined depending upon your medical history.

Alcohol can also have quite an influence on options for insurance. If you’d had a few intense drinking sessions in your late teens early twenties and your GP said to calm it down, that might not be too much of a concern to some insurer. But, there’s often a question about ever being told to reduce your alcohol consumption, that can lead to quite a different insurance journey if the answer is yes.

The key takeaways:

  • Some insurers class you as a non-smoker after 5 years or no nicotine consumption, for others it’s up to 5 years
  • The weekly limits for alcohol consumption in the UK have changed, and it’s affecting insurance applications
  • Two case studies of arranging life insurance for people who have had excessive alcohol consumption in the past

Next time Alan is going to be back with me and we are going to be talking about underwriting of chronic fatigue/ME.  

Remember, if you are listening to this as part of your work, you can claim a CPD certificate on our website, thanks to our sponsors NextGen Planners.

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Kathryn Knowles  00:09

Hi everyone. We Alan, season 10, episode eight, and Alan is back with me to give us some more underwriting insights. Hi Alan. Hi everyone. Today we’re going to be talking about how cigarettes and alcohol can potentially influence your insurance options. This is the practical protection podcast.

 

Kathryn Knowles  00:36

So just as a bit of background info about cigarettes and alcohol and what we’re going to be discussing today. So when we are talking about it’s really about being a smoker when it comes to your insurances, when you apply for protection insurance, so that’s life insurance, critical illness cover, income protection insurers do want to know if you’ve been a smoker. So smoker is classed as somebody who’s used any form of nicking products in at least the last 12 months. So that isn’t just cigarettes, it’s also cigars. It’s also e cigs. You know, with nicotine, sometimes we need to be careful if they’re not nicotine, just making sure that we’re clarifying exactly what the person is and isn’t having and exactly what the insurers do. And don’t want to know it’s even nicotine gum, nicotine patches is generally just anything that is nicking. And obviously alcohol is, is alcohol. And so to just give a little bit of a background on this, and I’m just going to say cigarettes, for pure ease of not listing everything with nicotine in it each time. And so cigarettes, so if you look at the Office of National Statistics, in 2023 there was roughly 6 million adults in the UK that were smokers, and that is, people are 18 and over, and the biggest amount of smokers was actually people between the ages of 25 and 34 we then also have some quite interesting stats about vapors as well. So again, around 2023 we have about 5.1 million people in the UK who are vapors. They’re using E cigs, and that actually goes from the ages of 16 and over, and the biggest amount of vapors are people who are the ages 16 and 24 so quite a lot of people that would be classed as smokers. And we’re going to go into what that means in terms of ranging your insurances, but let’s just have a quick look at the alcohol side of things. So without calling, we will go into why this is really quite looked at quite considerably by insurers. When we are wanting to get our insurances. It costs the NHS in the UK 3.5 billion each year looking after people who have some kind of alcohol related either condition or accident, is actually alcohol is the biggest risk factor for death, ill health and disability among 15 to 49 year olds in the UK, and it’s the fifth biggest risk across all ages. So that was actually quite surprised me, just how high that up up is in the scale of things. And just as again, why insurers could be a bit more unsettled sometimes when alcohol does seem to be something that plays quite a role in someone’s life is that we do actually have, if we look at the alcohol Health Alliance, and we have 70 people dying every day in the UK due to some kind of alcohol related cause. So we’re going to get into things. So we’re going to start off more like the cigarette side of things. But Alan, are we 12 months or five years before clients are classed as non smokers? It’s a bit confusing at the moment.

 

Alan Knowles  03:32

Yeah, it’s, I mean, it’s changed a lot. So from the day where it used to be, have you smoked in the last 12 months? You know, it’s then become, you know, have you smoked to use nicotine products. Have you smoked to use tobacco, nicotine products to then, have you smoked use tobacco? Nicotine products Vivek used anything like a Shesha pipe or anything else, you know, etc, etc. And now we’re also getting introduced with, have you ever smoked, or have you smoked in the last five years? Actually, before I answer this question, though, properly, just to go back to something you said at the very, very start, Kathryn, you focused on nicotine, and you said about people using nicotine will be deemed a smoker, but actually, even a non nicotine vapor is classed as a smoker, so you have to be really careful in how you ask these

 

Kathryn Knowles  04:25

questions. I hinted at that. I hinted, well,

 

Alan Knowles  04:29

you led me to it, then I did so. So, you know, I mean, I’ll come back to the question a second, but you know, there is one insurer, and I won’t name them, who will treat a 0% nickate user as a non smoker? Everyone else in the market will treat a 0% nicotine use of vapor as a smoker. So everyone in that Tom, yeah, they’re all treated under smoker. Smoker rates vapor or non vapor, I was going to say,

 

Kathryn Knowles  04:56

and I think because people could be thinking, but why in a sense, and especially. Actually, if you’re a smoker, you probably are an ESS smoker who’s known a good team, but think more wine. I think it’s because of the fact that I don’t know, obviously, again, with vaping, we’ve not had decades worth of data yet, but I think it’s probably it’s that habit of being sort of, even just, obviously, I used to be a smoker many, many years ago. I didn’t do it for very long, and it is 20 years since I smoked. And you know, one of the worst things I found for trying to stop smoking, it was the hand action. It was that it was when you were in a social group. It was the fact that, you know, you were with your friends, if you were out for a drink, you would probably have a few more cigarettes, because it just naturally kind of goes together when you were in that kind of setting, but yeah, just that there are movement to your mouth. It becomes such a repetitive, kind of learned, muscular movement and almost a bit of a relaxing movement as well, that it’s quite tricky. So I think that’s the thing, is that even if you’re not using nicotine based it’s possibly still that atmosphere, the environment, that could potentially lead you to then start using a nicotine based one, or, you know, again, with nicotine gum. People could be thinking, well, nicotine gum, that’s not doing anything to the lungs. But again, it’s the fact that, because it’s got nicotine in it, it’s you are getting that kind of, that addictive nicotine in you. And so the kind of thought is that it wouldn’t take too much to then actually go towards smoking a cigarette or using something else, or maybe even an e cig that has a nicotine in it.

 

Alan Knowles  06:32

But actually, even just inhaling, you know, the smoke has its risks. Nicotine in itself, in gum has its risks. It still comes with complications, not as bad, arguably, as the tobacco and the nicotine, but it still does carry some risks. But back to answer your question, before I went off on tangent. Sorry, you know the majority, it’s hard to say the majority now, but basically, five insurers will now ask or take into account smoking in the last five years. Am I allowed to name them, since there’s not just one, or would you prefer me to avoid? I

 

Kathryn Knowles  07:08

can’t see there’s any. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with with naming people. Because, I mean, it’s not as if it’s going to not happen. Anybody does because I think, as well, it’s important. Among the reasons it’s probably important to quote is, and say who it is is, because this is my big things here is that you are not going to see this on your initial quotation. When you do your quotation, that you’re going to answer. Your answer is going to be, are they, have they used been a smoker in the last 12 months, Nick, and 12 months, you’re going to say, No, you know, let’s say for somebody. Let’s assume that it is a no, absolutely fine. And so you quote a price, and then you go ahead. But then what you don’t realize is, is that when you do the application, the question changed to say, well, actually, in the last five years, have they had anything? You go, well, actually, yeah, three years, eight months ago, they were a smoker, but they stopped then. But your pricing has completely changed. And then that is potentially going to be an issue in terms of what you present to the client, how comfortable they’re going to feel, obviously the trust in terms of, obviously you’ve built this trust with them, to be with you, to go through this journey, to get the insurance, and all of a sudden you’re like, actually, the price is going up. So yeah, so I think it’s fine to say which insurers do and don’t do it.

 

Alan Knowles  08:12

And I think it’s important to know that whilst you might not get an accurate quote for this on the portals, although I think they are starting to adopt this now they are starting to move towards asking these sorts of questions. You should get an accurate quote if you go directly to the insurance company. So they should allow for it. So currently on the market, there is a viva, there is guardian, there is legal in general, there is Royal London, and there is Zurich. If I’ve missed anybody off that, I apologize. What I would say is that each of them do it slightly differently. So some will treat as smokers. Some will treat as a sort of a load. By the way, I’m talking about somebody who has smoked in the last five years, but not in the last 12 months, just to be clear. So let’s say somebody stopped smoking three years ago. So some of them might load the client 25% on a non smoker rate. Some will charge double because they’ll just treat them as a smoker. Interestingly and complicated for for us as advisors, what I think one of them does it on all products, life, kick and IP, sorry. Life, critical, illness and IP, some of them do it on life and kick, and some of them do it on life only. Well, that’s

 

Kathryn Knowles  09:16

the thing. Thank you, and show us you make it so easy for us and but isn’t it as well, though, that sometimes it’s a bit of a scale in terms of that rating. So, you know, if somebody was two years post smoking versus someone who’s four year four and a half years, that might be a potential difference in terms of the rating. I’m not sure I thought I’d seen that with someone and I’ve said it, I’m like, I don’t know if I’ve made that up.

 

Alan Knowles  09:38

It would make sense. I mean, there’s definitely a scale in terms of two years, and then within the last five years, whether one of them does it different at maybe three or four, I didn’t think so,

 

Kathryn Knowles  09:46

but maybe, maybe not. Maybe I’m making that up. Come back to me. Let me know if I’m making please anybody, if you’re giving intros ideas. Um, so I mean, I think in the important thing is, for people who aren’t familiar with this, basically, if someone is a smoker, the premiums are going to. Double. Let’s just say roughly that. I mean, it’s more complicated than that in times, but roughly it’s going to be double. So you know, you’re always ideally, if someone is recently become a non smoker, let’s say become a non smoker three month ago. Well, they’re going to the premiums are going to be double for now. So what you ideally want to do is say, look, let’s get this in place now. But as soon as we hit the 12 month mark, we review, and then automatically, you’re going to be bringing their premiums down quite nicely, and they’re going to be really grateful that you’re suggesting that to them, that you will be doing that. It’s also a really good thing when you’re doing client reviews, if they’ve been a smoker in the past, to say to them, you know, have you given up smoking at all? I mean, obviously it’s quite a sensitive conversation sometimes with some people. But just say, Look, just an update, are you still a smoker? And then, so what’s important about that is two things is that. One, if someone’s been on smoker rates, they can now access non smoker rates. Brilliant. You’re going to save a lot of money. But also, if they weren’t a smoker and they’re now a smoker, then you’re probably going to know that you don’t want to touch their original policies. You’re going to be like, right? Whatever needs to happen. Now we’re probably going to be looking more with top ups, or looking at things slightly differently, because anything we do now, one, you’re older than when we reviewed you last year, but also your premiums are probably going to double. Another thing to be very, very mindful of is that sometimes, you know, with people, they will say that they’re a non smoker, because they don’t smoke cigarettes. But then maybe cannabis users, and they don’t think of it that way, and you’ll maybe suddenly be doing stuff, and you’re going along, and you’re thinking, Well, hang on a minute. Why didn’t they tell me? You know, they’ve just told me they’re taking cannabis. Well, that was created tobacco, so they must be smoking it. Why don’t they tell me, you can sometimes find that, can’t you? You can,

 

Alan Knowles  11:37

yeah, and I think it’s why it’s important to extend the smoking question as well. Now, so obviously, when you do an application with an insurer, you will read it verbatim as to what they actually say. But when you’re initially speaking to someone and doing a fact, find it’s very easy just to say, Are you a smoker or a non smoker? Have you smoked in the last 12 months? Well, we’ve learned very much that you extend that question to say, you know, have you smoked? Have you bit, have you used any nicotine tobacco products? You know, you extend that question out, but you’re right. If you, if you get a declaration of something like cannabis, I would even go as far to say that even if they’ve not smoked it, I mean, I’m not talking this is a drug episode. If they’ve done it in a brownie, fair enough, that’s probably a little bit different. But if they’ve used a pipe or a bomb, or anything that might be different, you know, that involves a level of inhalation with it. Yeah, I would say that that should be going down on, well, that’s

 

Kathryn Knowles  12:29

the thing I was just going to say. Then if somebody does tell you that they’ve had cannabis, then, you know, without obviously, sorry, going into like laws and lots of information, it can be quite useful to potentially say, just checked, do you smoke the cannabis? Or do, you know, how do you take it? And you know, it’s, it’s not sort of like being too I don’t think it’s been too prying, but again, it’s a case of, you know, it could be so easily missed that this person is actually a smoker. It’s just that they class it slightly differently, but going to the vaping side of things, yep. And so we’ve mentioned nicotine, no nicotine. Non nicotine. Have mentioned that there’s a 0% nicotine might be, you know, non smoker weights, things like that. But it is quite confusing. Is there anything that advisors need to be looking out for in the way that people are terming it, or anything like that to them? What is in the questions or what? So if somebody, if you said somebody nicotine or non nicotine, baby, is there anything? I mean, obviously you would think that most people would know. But is there anything that stands out?

 

Alan Knowles  13:26

Yeah. I mean, whenever I get anyone who says, Yes, I vape, I just ask the simple question after, does the vape contain nicotine? You know that you use, and people know that because they buy, they buy the ones. And being honest, the majority of people have nicotine in them. Most people do not have a 0% nicotine there. But if you do have somebody, it’s important to know, because if you can get the non smoker rates going back to your earlier point, it might be half the price,

 

Kathryn Knowles  13:55

absolutely. And that’s just a reminder, because I’m people probably not listening to the podcast in the past. I’m very sensitive to smells and things like that. And I know somebody and because they have ridiculous flavors, don’t they? You love, no. Honestly, sometimes when you’re walking past someone, you know, you get hit by that old fashioned kind of like train cloud of smoke. And it’s just like, Oh, I just it. And this the thing, I think it was watermelon and kiwi. And I was just like, oh my word that smells.

 

Alan Knowles  14:23

How did you know it was watermelon kiwi? All right, not

 

Kathryn Knowles  14:28

being vaping. You

 

Alan Knowles  14:29

walk past a stranger and you just like, No,

 

Kathryn Knowles  14:33

I’m not that good. No, no, they’re very bad. I know them. And I was just like, oh my word that is just so vile. But you know, to each their own, but at least we know I’d never be a vapor because it was vile. Well,

 

Alan Knowles  14:44

You tempted me now because I like the sound of that. No, no,

 

Kathryn Knowles  14:47

no, no, right? So quick. Down for everybody. Run down for everybody. Alan and why are nicotine products? What? What’s, what’s the risks? What are you sure is worried about? Well,

 

Alan Knowles  14:57

I mean, obviously one, you’ve got the addictive Nick. Nature, nicotine is a highly, highly addictive substance, as we know, that’s what was added to the tobacco to make cigarettes originally. You know, obviously have have that addictive element to them. So it does still carry risk. Now it whether it’s tobacco from smoking cigarettes, whether it’s nicotine from vaping, they all carry risks to the circularity system, they can increase the risk of cancer and heart attacks, so many things that they can lead to, as well as lung conditions, breathing problems. And vapes, for example, can still cause that, but it can still cause lung problems, and breathing problems because you are still inhaling that smoke. There’s also been some studies and some some instances into things called popcorn lung as well, which is where there becomes restrictions around the the lungs. And again, do

 

Kathryn Knowles  15:47

you know what? It’s popcorn lung? I’ve been thinking cauliflower lung. No, that’s cauliflower ear for rugby players. Ah, yeah. I was just, I’ve been convinced myself going into cauliflower lungs, as we like, prepping for this. But popcorn lung is absolutely the

 

Alan Knowles  15:59

right one. I could imagine them, you know, in that cauliflower factory, where they’re breathing in all the cauliflower flavor. Well, I

 

Kathryn Knowles  16:04

don’t think that’s happening the popcorn factory, either. So there you go. So

 

Alan Knowles  16:07

it was a flavoring. It was one of the flavorings. Begins with D. I can’t remember the name of it, but it was watermelon caveman. And it was, again, it was something that they were breathing in, yeah, unknowingly that they were adding to the popcorn, and that was causing these restrictions in the

 

Kathryn Knowles  16:22

air. I’m sure there’s some. I’m sure it’s cauliflower. There’s something, though, about like, because it’s something with the way that the lungs end up looking. And I’m sure there’s something about cauliflower somewhere. Again, I could be making that up. Probably not good thing for me to keep saying that episodes, isn’t it? But no, there’s something, and that’s a problem, I think, on the vaping side of things, because obviously, we all, we all know from what’s being said medically, that vaping is better than smoking, and obviously it’s seen as a step down to get you away from smoking cigarettes and but what the problem is, again, is that, you know, insurers use decades worth of data to do their risk tables, the pricing and everything, and with vaping, that information isn’t there yet. I mean, we’re maybe getting towards a decade or so, maybe a little bit longer. But what it had done is it had shown these issues, like Alan was saying, with the lung and, you know, and you could see that in the in the X rays and the different scans that they’re doing. And the problem is they don’t know the long term effects of that, in terms of how that’s going to affect people’s lifespans. So that’s why there is still so much uncertainty, even if, with, you know, like you were saying majority of insurers, even if there was a 0% nicotine, just the fact that you’re putting something in your body, you’re inhaling something, that is what is causing the concern. I

 

Alan Knowles  17:30

think you can look at some of the the other risk factors as well. So obviously, the tobacco industry, the cigarettes and things, have had such a long time of obviously, you know, evolving, and if the right word is being regulated to an extent. Well, obviously vaping is new. There’s lots of instances of knock off products and cheap products and people buying them off mates and things like that, and, you know, these different imports and things like that. But there’s also, with the vapes as well, some of the amount of nicotine in some of them are crazy. I mean, you mentioned that the smoke plume that you walk through that’s so much more than you would have had from a cigarette, because they’re in huge amounts of smoke. But then as well, if they’re having something with 2345, times as much nicotine as a cigarette would have had, yeah, well, then that’s got its own complications,

 

Kathryn Knowles  18:15

absolutely. And we do also have as well. And I think this is important. I’ve got some stuff going on social at the moment, about like, different things in terms of, like, if people have this app, this condition, or that conditions, like cancer, stroke, diabetes, like, what can be available, insurance wise, and all this kind of thing. And, and I think what’s important is that, you know, we also look at the fact that sometimes, if somebody is a smoker, when there are conditions, sometimes it’s just a no, yeah,

 

Alan Knowles  18:41

yeah, you’re absolutely right. So if you have say, we’re looking at life insurance for a customer and they’ve had a heart attack, if they are a smoker and a current smoker, that will mean, to my knowledge, every single mainstream insurer will decline. So you end up going specialist. So not only does that customer have to pay more because they’re a smoker, because the premiums already doubled, but then the ratings are probably going to be higher because with a specialist, so everything just gets confounded into a much, much bigger premium, but actually leads to a decline with a lot similar for diabetes, you know, insurers will not like somebody who is certainly a heavier smoker, along with diabetes. Income Protection. Cover is now quite, quite available for people with diabetes, but actually, majority will decline if that client is smoker or even a vapor because, again, they bundle, and I’m not saying whether I think this is right or wrong, but they bundle the vaping and the smoking and the nicotine gum all into one when they’re assessing for underwriting as well.

 

Kathryn Knowles  19:40

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there was quite a lot in terms of that, if anybody, in a sense, if you go back through the diabetes episodes that we’ve had on this, you know, it’s, it’s the build up of sugar in the body, which then can lead to, sort of, like, even more things that will then have knock on effects to the cardiovascular system. And then it really bringing in the smoking as well that’s affecting the breathing and the cardiovascular system. It’s all about the blood get. Around the body well, and it can. And obviously, statistics do show in those instances, there are decades worth of, you know, data in terms of smoking and these conditions. And unfortunately, it does show quite a gloomy outlook, in a sense, for the long term life expectancy for people. So let’s go on to the alcohol side of things. And what do we sometimes see in terms of issues for alcohol and getting insurance?

 

Alan Knowles  20:27

So, I mean, historically, it would have been levels, I guess, alcohol. So alcohol issues is probably a lot more prevalent now than, I think, what it has been in the past, or certainly something that we see a lot more. And actually, you know, the outlook and the view from insurers probably hasn’t really changed. But, you know, we used to maybe come across some clients who had had alcohol dependency, who had issues relating to alcohol. They’d maybe been to AA or something like that. They’d had advice to stop drinking. People maybe drink 100 plus units a week, things like that. These would all be sort of real issues. Insurance companies generally tend to, like, see the sort of people with less than 30 units a week, you know, they will allow more than the recommended allowance, which is currently around about 14, I think, per week. But

 

Kathryn Knowles  21:14

this is where we’re going to talk about, I’ve got a few issues to bring up with that. We’ll come back onto that. Then I want to have more than 14. Yes, it’s just, I’m talking about insurance talking about insurance. But, you know,

 

Alan Knowles  21:25

I think for you know, where we are, kind of right now is seeing a spike of alcohol related disclosures, and certainly where people have, maybe had increased levels, spoke to their GPS about it, had levels of concern, and a lot of this, I suspect, and from people I talk to, is linked to the pandemic, because a lot of people, and it was widely reported, increased alcohol consumption during the pandemic because they were at home and etc, etc, and for whatever reasons. So what we’re now seeing is more people having to declare that they’ve received some level of advice to reduce alcohol consumption. And this, this, even in itself, can present problems, because if you look at the difference, the difference, I mean, obviously somebody drinking, let’s say 100 units of alcohol per week. We all know that is far too much, and that is going to be damaging, and that is probably getting to a level of dependency, if that is becoming a regular thing. So we can all look at that and say, actually, you know, this is a risk, and understand why insurers would be concerned about that. But what we now see is actually people who are maybe drinking 20 units, about coal per week, been told to reduce. Now an insurance company would typically accept a client at 30 units a week, probably without a loading, depending which insurer you go to, I think some will even do 40 units a week, potentially. But then, if somebody’s had alcohol, you know, a doctor said, well, actually you should put down that’s above guidance. We’ve got to declare that now some insurers will decline any advice at all. If you’ve ever been advised to reduce alcohol consumption, they will decline. Not many, but some will some will decline. If you’ve had advice to reduce and you still drink. Well, actually, the difference between somebody who drinks 20 or 30 units per week and has been told that’s a little bit too much as you probably drop it and still drops it to 10, to me, that is a much lower risk than the person who was drinking 100 units, and it’s dropped theirs down to 10, because the person who’s been drinking 100 units has probably had a level of dependency. So we are seeing much more complicated cases, I think, and ones where actually online systems do not necessarily capture all of this. The best advice I can give without going off on tangents on this is to speak to underwriters, speak to the insurers. It’s probably because you will see this more and more now, but speak to the insurers and get that and get get a bit of a picture, get a story. What’s happened with it? Yeah, I was

 

Kathryn Knowles  23:52

going to say that’s the biggest issue that I’m seeing. Is this being advised to reduce because, like you say, you know that it used to be in the UK, quite standard from, like, the sort of guidance from the medical industry was, you know, like the NHS and peoples was, I think it was probably around 21 units. Was seen as pretty much, okay, not an issue. And then some point, there’s been a kind of, like, the seem to have had a mini secret meeting where they’ve all gone, no, it needs to be 14 units now. And the problem is, is that it’s not, I don’t think that’s been like, broadcast anywhere necessarily. I mean, I’m sure it has been somewhere, but it’s certainly not something that I’ve seen. But maybe it’s because I don’t really drink alcohol

 

Alan Knowles  24:30

Tom I think it’s been that way for quite a while. So it’s may have been just, yeah,

 

Kathryn Knowles  24:34

  1. So the problem is, though it’s like, I say it’s that it’s been like, near that 20 units, and it’s and it’s that’s not been an issue. And for insurers, 20 units isn’t an issue. But if you speak to someone, speak to a GP, and it’s over 14, they have to say, well, guidance is, you know, 14 units a week max, so you should reduce it. That’s immediately you’ve had advice to reduce, which is just so, so frustrating, because it’s almost that thing of like, well, if. You’ve not spoken to anybody you and you’re drinking 20 units, that’s not an issue. But because you are just, even if it’s just like a regular health checkup, you know that you get certain ages, or just generally, you’re popping into the jeep and they ask a roughly about your lifestyle because they’ve not seen you for a while, you can suddenly get this thing there. So it’s it is definitely about speaking to the underwriters, just being mindful of it. So one of the things that we do, well, I tend to do when I’m speaking for you, I’m doing my fact find is Alison, how much do you drink an average week? See what they have to say. And I’ll just just throw it in there. Say, Have you ever been advised to reduce because you can be surprised at how that can suddenly pop up and you’re like, oh, wow, I didn’t expect this. Again, massively changing the insurer that you’re going to potentially really changing, the the the, sorry, the the premiums that you’re looking at. And with a lot of people, it can just be that it’s quite a simple and, and it’s just a simple thing of, like, going to a different insurer, where there’s, like, quite a there’s more flexibility and understanding the differences between medical world and insurance world. But sometimes at the same point, you can get someone who’s drinking quite a lot, and, you know, the insurers do want to know that. The other thing I want to say, because you picked up about, like, you know, people who’ve had advice and maybe been to AA and things like that, is that going to AA in the past, or even going to AA now, doesn’t mean it’s no in terms of getting insurance. So that’s really, really really important, because people tend to think, Oh, well, like, even for mental health, people think, well, if I’m taking medication, the insurers won’t like that. Or if I’m seeing a counselor, people aren’t like that. And in fact, if I’m at AA, then they won’t like it. That isn’t correct. The insurers are actually very much a case of where you’re actively getting support and you’re actively seeking support, to be healthier, to understand what you’re going through, or even, you know, for a lot of people with AA, obviously, they then go on to volunteer and support other people. And so, you know, don’t be, I would say, don’t be scared about sharing that kind of information. Because actually, sometimes, and there are especially certain like circumstances that I can think of in terms of underwriting, where it would actually be a much better outcome if you were getting that support and if you were reaching out to people.

 

Alan Knowles  27:11

What I would just add to that is if somebody has, say, sought help from alcohol services, or somebody has had alcohol dependency, anything that’s getting towards that level, the chances are an insurer will now want to see them as teetotal. So obviously, absolutely positive that insurance can be looked at. And he’s, you know, we’re proof of that, that we get cover for a lot of people who have had previous addiction problems with alcohol. But if it’s been at that level, it is different to the person who’s just gone to the GP, and they’ve said, I should drink a little bit less. Because, yeah, the people who’ve just been advised to drink a little bit less will probably still get covered if they still drink a bit the people who have had dependency AA, alcohol support services most likely need to be teetotal. Yeah.

 

Kathryn Knowles  27:54

And I think, yeah, that’s really, really important to note. Okay, so again, another quick run down for everybody. So what is the concern about alcohol? A

 

Alan Knowles  28:04

lot, Amy alcohol, I say, don’t quote me on this. I’m on a podcast, so specifically, quote you a bit late for this. But I believe that alcohol is probably the big, you know, the biggest killer in terms of drugs in in the world, I would say. And I’m sure I’ve seen that statistic plenty of places. The difference is, it’s a legal drug. It’s one that we pay for, a one that we use. But you know, the damages from alcohol abuse and misuse are huge, and it can lead to cancer, it can lead to, you know, arterial problems. It can lead to heart trouble. It can increase the risk of diabetes, raising your HB, 1c, reading. It can increase your blood pressure, affect your cholesterol, it can affect your liver. So obviously, we all know about cirrhosis and fibrosis and things like that.

 

Kathryn Knowles  28:50

We don’t all know about cirrhosis and fibrosis, because what we do, we do know this, but people listening, so basically, your livers quite poorly. Yeah, that’s that’s what those mean levels

 

Alan Knowles  29:00

of scarring on the liver, basically. And actually, if somebody’s got cirrhosis of the liver, again, we go back to that whole thing that every single mainstream insurer will decline. Doesn’t mean they’re uninsurable, but you get into more the worlds of specialists again. So there are lots and lots of potential impacts from the misuse of alcohol. But also there’s the situation of that’s the right word, possible impacts for it as well. You know, I mean, somebody who’s in under the influence is more likely to fall over and bang their head, you know, because they’re not as aware of the surroundings. They’re not as not as quick with the reactions and things like that. So lots and lots of potential risk factors that could be as well.

 

Kathryn Knowles  29:39

If you, if you, if you were somebody who was drinking quite significant amount of alcohol as well, it’s unlikely that you’re being quite fit and active as well. You You’re probably quite stationary. So again, that increased risk of a higher BMI, the diabetes starts to come into where the heart health starts to be affected quite a bit, absolutely. And

 

Alan Knowles  29:56

actually, if somebody’s not putting on weight because they’re drinking a lot, probably means. Not Eating Enough, and therefore the nutritional deficiencies and everything like that, that’s going to happen as a result. But it actually just made me think of one other thing, and a probably relevant one to sort of point out, but insurers really, really dislike and completely understandably, but say, for example, someone who’s been disqualified from driving as a result of driving under the influence, because not only does that show that they’ve maybe drank too much, but it shows a poor decision, making a risk, taking that obviously they wouldn’t that, you know, they wouldn’t like to see so, yeah, I guess that’s

 

Kathryn Knowles  30:32

quite a common question. Isn’t it? Like, have you been banned or convicted and dangerous driving, anything like that? Because, like you say, it is to do with choices. You know that when we come to cigarettes, alcohol is all about lifestyle choices, and they’re just trying to see, sort of like, what kind of risks that person is being subjected to, when we mentioned, as well, the the liver. So you know that specifically, the cirrhosis of the liver, one thing that these shows are looking at specifically, if there has been quite a query over how much alcohol is, what’s known as the lft. So the liver function test, and that’s just a number. It comes from a blood test, and basically, your liver should be within a certain number range. If it’s outside of that, it means it’s it’s not working exactly as we would hope it to. It’s not completely what we’d say in the healthy ranges, which means that, you know, with anything in our bodies, it all has a knock on effect to the other. So if the liver isn’t working as well, then another organs then probably trying to then work harder to compensate for the liver, which then means that that organ isn’t working as well because it’s being forced to do and it’s to knock on effect to everything. So you know, don’t be surprised if an insurer potentially says, depending upon the history. Well actually, before we would want to ensure this person we would like to see either report from the GP or maybe for them to even have a medical so that we can just establish what their liver functioning is doing. And that would be something really important to have. And I think because sometimes people can find that kind of thing a bit insulting when you say to them that might not happen. So one of the things I try to do to the people is just say, Look, you know, this is actually, this isn’t unusual. You know, this is, it’s quite normal actually, to have things like medicals happen. And personally, I really like them, and this is a way to sort of phrase it to clients, is that I like them, because then it means, when it’s underwritten, we know that the insurance knows exactly what’s going on in your body in terms of your blood in terms of your urine, your blood pressure, your cholesterol, things like that. So if there’s ever a query at points of claim, well, were they truthful? You know, what was their liver doing at this point? Well, we can just go, Well, you had the medical so you knew exactly what their liver was like or what it was doing when you knew what their blood pressure was doing at that time. It’s like a free mini health MLT for them. And the important other side of things as well is that if something comes back on that, so let’s say the liver function wasn’t in normal ranges, then it’s a really, really positive thing that it’s being called, not positive necessarily in terms of getting the insurance in place, but very positive in being a case of, right? So your liver isn’t within normal ranges, right? So we need to get this sorted. Because the whole thing is, is that, you know, we want these shows there to be a backup, but it’s all about this person being healthy, and everybody wants them to live as long and fruitful a life as possible. So if we can do anything that identifies any kind of issues early on, then surely that’s for the better. Yes, frustrating for the insurance, but in terms of their health and their life, brilliant to get that identified and get it sorted straight away. Yeah, right. Couple of case studies then. So case study one, so I’ve just got these to give you a couple of examples in terms of pricing. The second case study is where we’ve had to go, quite specialist, and you’ll probably see that from where we’re going through it. So case study one, we have somebody who is a smoker and has an alcohol history too. So the early 50s, they’ve been a smoker in the last 12 months. So they are classed as being a smoker in terms of the alcohol about nine to 10 years prior to the application, they did go into rehab for a week for a detox. This is specifically for alcohol, and they’ve been drinking 30 units over three days every week. Around that time, so much more, sort of like what’s cost us, like the binge drinking side of things. So having quite a lot it was affecting them. This is certainly not the level of alcohol that would cause maybe everybody to feel that they would go into a rehab or a detox or anything that would necessarily be, you know, declarable, necessarily, in terms of where the insurers are starting to get a bit uncertain about 30 units a week. But for this person, it had been something that had affected them. So they did seek out that support, and they took medication for six months to help, and they actually didn’t stop drinking straight away. So that’s quite relevant to what you were saying. Alan, so they actually stopped drinking about seven to eight years ago. So from the time of going to rehab, getting the treatment, it was about two years before they actually became t total. They do attend AA, and they also help run the sessions. They have a mortgage. So we did 135,000 of decreasing life insurance over 25 years, and that came to 92 pounds per month. And that was a mixture of being a smoker and also that alcohol history. For the second case study, we have someone who is had quite a bit of alcohol in the past, and they were mid 50s that were an ex smoke, so 10 years ago. So that wasn’t coming into play. But the other, the two other things kind of come into play a little bit. So we had a BMI of 42.9 which is something that most insurers would be wanting to look at a bit more, possibly starting to find it really reducing the amount of insurers we can look at the alcohol had actually been four years prior to the application, and they’ve been drinking 125 units a week, and that went on for a period of six months, and they have been sober for three and a half years when they came to us, and it did attend AA meetings. There’s also some information in terms of mental health. They’re taking some medication. They were doing some cognitive behavior therapy. And I think what’s really important here is that, just to say, if you do have mental health, and in a sense, it’s quite mild, you are taking a low medication, some cognitive behavior therapy, that’s not necessarily going to have an influence on your options for insurance, but when you have something like this, where there’s quite a large alcohol dependency that was going on for a while, you can sometimes find that the mental health, even if it’s a smaller amount, is taken into account just a case of it’s it’s not necessarily going to massively affect anything, but it’s just an extra consideration that

 

Alan Knowles  36:23

is there. I was just going to say self medication is probably what you’re looking for there. If somebody’s medicating themselves with alcohol, then obviously the two things combined, yes, don’t particularly help. But the more time that’s passed, yeah, the better,

 

Kathryn Knowles  36:36

exactly. So with that, it’d be a case of saying, right, well, in terms of the mental health, how long has that been diagnosed for? You know, have they started the medication since, possibly stopping drinking alcohol? Is that being consistent? Are they keeping in line? Are they keeping in touch, keeping in line with their medications? I’m not saying keeping in line like are they behaving themselves? I realized that sounded terrible, you know. Are they keeping in line with the prescription? Are they attending and speaking to the GP when they’re being asked to speak to them, just as like those regular prescription reviews, things like that. So we did have to go quite special here, just because of we had a mix. The main things were the mix of the BMI, the amount of alcohol, and still, in a sense, quite the recency. It wasn’t in the insurance terms of that long ago. So for this person who’s 250,000 pounds of level life insurance arranged over five years, and that was 390 pounds per month. So there’s our case studies, there’s the episode. Thank you for listening everybody, and thank you Alan for joining me. Thank you very welcome. Thank you. Next time you’re gonna be joining me again, we don’t skip you for an episode. We get you back straight away, indeed, and I’m gonna be talking about chronic fatigue or me, for people who are more familiar with it that way, I will pronounce it in the full term of me when we actually do it. Get practicing. I am going to be practicing. I’m going to do my absolute best. And obviously would love to hear you, see, you hear you, see, you see, to have you back with us, even for the practice for the next one look on our website, practical hyphen protection.co.uk. For any other episodes for your CPD certificate. And don’t forget, if you’ve listened to this as part of your work, you can get a CP certificate on the website too, thanks to our sponsors, next gen planners. So thank you very much, everybody. And bye, Alan, bye, you.

Transcript Disclaimer:

Episodes of the Practical Protection Podcast include a transcript of the episode’s audio. The text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record.

We often discuss health and medical conditions in relation to protection insurance and underwriting, always consult with a healthcare professional if you are concerned about any medical conditions and symptoms we have covered in any episode.

Episode 8 - Cigarettes & Alcohol

Hi everyone, we have Alan Knowles back with us and we are taking a look at how lifestyles can affect options and pricing of  life insurance, critical illness cover and income protection. Being a smoker usually doubles your premiums for protection insurance, as the stats show that you are far more likely to make a claim on the insurances. Not only this, but being a smoker can lead to your applications being declined depending upon your medical history.

Alcohol can also have quite an influence on options for insurance. If you’d had a few intense drinking sessions in your late teens early twenties and your GP said to calm it down, that might not be too much of a concern to some insurer. But, there’s often a question about ever being told to reduce your alcohol consumption, that can lead to quite a different insurance journey if the answer is yes.

The key takeaways:

  • Some insurers class you as a non-smoker after 5 years or no nicotine consumption, for others it’s up to 5 years
  • The weekly limits for alcohol consumption in the UK have changed, and it’s affecting insurance applications
  • Two case studies of arranging life insurance for people who have had excessive alcohol consumption in the past

Next time Alan is going to be back with me and we are going to be talking about underwriting of chronic fatigue/ME.  

Remember, if you are listening to this as part of your work, you can claim a CPD certificate on our website, thanks to our sponsors NextGen Planners.

RETURN TO VIEW ALL EPISODES

 

Kathryn Knowles  00:09

Hi everyone. We Alan, season 10, episode eight, and Alan is back with me to give us some more underwriting insights. Hi Alan. Hi everyone. Today we're going to be talking about how cigarettes and alcohol can potentially influence your insurance options. This is the practical protection podcast.

 

Kathryn Knowles  00:36

So just as a bit of background info about cigarettes and alcohol and what we're going to be discussing today. So when we are talking about it's really about being a smoker when it comes to your insurances, when you apply for protection insurance, so that's life insurance, critical illness cover, income protection insurers do want to know if you've been a smoker. So smoker is classed as somebody who's used any form of nicking products in at least the last 12 months. So that isn't just cigarettes, it's also cigars. It's also e cigs. You know, with nicotine, sometimes we need to be careful if they're not nicotine, just making sure that we're clarifying exactly what the person is and isn't having and exactly what the insurers do. And don't want to know it's even nicotine gum, nicotine patches is generally just anything that is nicking. And obviously alcohol is, is alcohol. And so to just give a little bit of a background on this, and I'm just going to say cigarettes, for pure ease of not listing everything with nicotine in it each time. And so cigarettes, so if you look at the Office of National Statistics, in 2023 there was roughly 6 million adults in the UK that were smokers, and that is, people are 18 and over, and the biggest amount of smokers was actually people between the ages of 25 and 34 we then also have some quite interesting stats about vapors as well. So again, around 2023 we have about 5.1 million people in the UK who are vapors. They're using E cigs, and that actually goes from the ages of 16 and over, and the biggest amount of vapors are people who are the ages 16 and 24 so quite a lot of people that would be classed as smokers. And we're going to go into what that means in terms of ranging your insurances, but let's just have a quick look at the alcohol side of things. So without calling, we will go into why this is really quite looked at quite considerably by insurers. When we are wanting to get our insurances. It costs the NHS in the UK 3.5 billion each year looking after people who have some kind of alcohol related either condition or accident, is actually alcohol is the biggest risk factor for death, ill health and disability among 15 to 49 year olds in the UK, and it's the fifth biggest risk across all ages. So that was actually quite surprised me, just how high that up up is in the scale of things. And just as again, why insurers could be a bit more unsettled sometimes when alcohol does seem to be something that plays quite a role in someone's life is that we do actually have, if we look at the alcohol Health Alliance, and we have 70 people dying every day in the UK due to some kind of alcohol related cause. So we're going to get into things. So we're going to start off more like the cigarette side of things. But Alan, are we 12 months or five years before clients are classed as non smokers? It's a bit confusing at the moment.

 

Alan Knowles  03:32

Yeah, it's, I mean, it's changed a lot. So from the day where it used to be, have you smoked in the last 12 months? You know, it's then become, you know, have you smoked to use nicotine products. Have you smoked to use tobacco, nicotine products to then, have you smoked use tobacco? Nicotine products Vivek used anything like a Shesha pipe or anything else, you know, etc, etc. And now we're also getting introduced with, have you ever smoked, or have you smoked in the last five years? Actually, before I answer this question, though, properly, just to go back to something you said at the very, very start, Kathryn, you focused on nicotine, and you said about people using nicotine will be deemed a smoker, but actually, even a non nicotine vapor is classed as a smoker, so you have to be really careful in how you ask these

 

Kathryn Knowles  04:25

questions. I hinted at that. I hinted, well,

 

Alan Knowles  04:29

you led me to it, then I did so. So, you know, I mean, I'll come back to the question a second, but you know, there is one insurer, and I won't name them, who will treat a 0% nickate user as a non smoker? Everyone else in the market will treat a 0% nicotine use of vapor as a smoker. So everyone in that Tom, yeah, they're all treated under smoker. Smoker rates vapor or non vapor, I was going to say,

 

Kathryn Knowles  04:56

and I think because people could be thinking, but why in a sense, and especially. Actually, if you're a smoker, you probably are an ESS smoker who's known a good team, but think more wine. I think it's because of the fact that I don't know, obviously, again, with vaping, we've not had decades worth of data yet, but I think it's probably it's that habit of being sort of, even just, obviously, I used to be a smoker many, many years ago. I didn't do it for very long, and it is 20 years since I smoked. And you know, one of the worst things I found for trying to stop smoking, it was the hand action. It was that it was when you were in a social group. It was the fact that, you know, you were with your friends, if you were out for a drink, you would probably have a few more cigarettes, because it just naturally kind of goes together when you were in that kind of setting, but yeah, just that there are movement to your mouth. It becomes such a repetitive, kind of learned, muscular movement and almost a bit of a relaxing movement as well, that it's quite tricky. So I think that's the thing, is that even if you're not using nicotine based it's possibly still that atmosphere, the environment, that could potentially lead you to then start using a nicotine based one, or, you know, again, with nicotine gum. People could be thinking, well, nicotine gum, that's not doing anything to the lungs. But again, it's the fact that, because it's got nicotine in it, it's you are getting that kind of, that addictive nicotine in you. And so the kind of thought is that it wouldn't take too much to then actually go towards smoking a cigarette or using something else, or maybe even an e cig that has a nicotine in it.

 

Alan Knowles  06:32

But actually, even just inhaling, you know, the smoke has its risks. Nicotine in itself, in gum has its risks. It still comes with complications, not as bad, arguably, as the tobacco and the nicotine, but it still does carry some risks. But back to answer your question, before I went off on tangent. Sorry, you know the majority, it's hard to say the majority now, but basically, five insurers will now ask or take into account smoking in the last five years. Am I allowed to name them, since there's not just one, or would you prefer me to avoid? I

 

Kathryn Knowles  07:08

can't see there's any. I don't think there's anything wrong with with naming people. Because, I mean, it's not as if it's going to not happen. Anybody does because I think, as well, it's important. Among the reasons it's probably important to quote is, and say who it is is, because this is my big things here is that you are not going to see this on your initial quotation. When you do your quotation, that you're going to answer. Your answer is going to be, are they, have they used been a smoker in the last 12 months, Nick, and 12 months, you're going to say, No, you know, let's say for somebody. Let's assume that it is a no, absolutely fine. And so you quote a price, and then you go ahead. But then what you don't realize is, is that when you do the application, the question changed to say, well, actually, in the last five years, have they had anything? You go, well, actually, yeah, three years, eight months ago, they were a smoker, but they stopped then. But your pricing has completely changed. And then that is potentially going to be an issue in terms of what you present to the client, how comfortable they're going to feel, obviously the trust in terms of, obviously you've built this trust with them, to be with you, to go through this journey, to get the insurance, and all of a sudden you're like, actually, the price is going up. So yeah, so I think it's fine to say which insurers do and don't do it.

 

Alan Knowles  08:12

And I think it's important to know that whilst you might not get an accurate quote for this on the portals, although I think they are starting to adopt this now they are starting to move towards asking these sorts of questions. You should get an accurate quote if you go directly to the insurance company. So they should allow for it. So currently on the market, there is a viva, there is guardian, there is legal in general, there is Royal London, and there is Zurich. If I've missed anybody off that, I apologize. What I would say is that each of them do it slightly differently. So some will treat as smokers. Some will treat as a sort of a load. By the way, I'm talking about somebody who has smoked in the last five years, but not in the last 12 months, just to be clear. So let's say somebody stopped smoking three years ago. So some of them might load the client 25% on a non smoker rate. Some will charge double because they'll just treat them as a smoker. Interestingly and complicated for for us as advisors, what I think one of them does it on all products, life, kick and IP, sorry. Life, critical, illness and IP, some of them do it on life and kick, and some of them do it on life only. Well, that's

 

Kathryn Knowles  09:16

the thing. Thank you, and show us you make it so easy for us and but isn't it as well, though, that sometimes it's a bit of a scale in terms of that rating. So, you know, if somebody was two years post smoking versus someone who's four year four and a half years, that might be a potential difference in terms of the rating. I'm not sure I thought I'd seen that with someone and I've said it, I'm like, I don't know if I've made that up.

 

Alan Knowles  09:38

It would make sense. I mean, there's definitely a scale in terms of two years, and then within the last five years, whether one of them does it different at maybe three or four, I didn't think so,

 

Kathryn Knowles  09:46

but maybe, maybe not. Maybe I'm making that up. Come back to me. Let me know if I'm making please anybody, if you're giving intros ideas. Um, so I mean, I think in the important thing is, for people who aren't familiar with this, basically, if someone is a smoker, the premiums are going to. Double. Let's just say roughly that. I mean, it's more complicated than that in times, but roughly it's going to be double. So you know, you're always ideally, if someone is recently become a non smoker, let's say become a non smoker three month ago. Well, they're going to the premiums are going to be double for now. So what you ideally want to do is say, look, let's get this in place now. But as soon as we hit the 12 month mark, we review, and then automatically, you're going to be bringing their premiums down quite nicely, and they're going to be really grateful that you're suggesting that to them, that you will be doing that. It's also a really good thing when you're doing client reviews, if they've been a smoker in the past, to say to them, you know, have you given up smoking at all? I mean, obviously it's quite a sensitive conversation sometimes with some people. But just say, Look, just an update, are you still a smoker? And then, so what's important about that is two things is that. One, if someone's been on smoker rates, they can now access non smoker rates. Brilliant. You're going to save a lot of money. But also, if they weren't a smoker and they're now a smoker, then you're probably going to know that you don't want to touch their original policies. You're going to be like, right? Whatever needs to happen. Now we're probably going to be looking more with top ups, or looking at things slightly differently, because anything we do now, one, you're older than when we reviewed you last year, but also your premiums are probably going to double. Another thing to be very, very mindful of is that sometimes, you know, with people, they will say that they're a non smoker, because they don't smoke cigarettes. But then maybe cannabis users, and they don't think of it that way, and you'll maybe suddenly be doing stuff, and you're going along, and you're thinking, Well, hang on a minute. Why didn't they tell me? You know, they've just told me they're taking cannabis. Well, that was created tobacco, so they must be smoking it. Why don't they tell me, you can sometimes find that, can't you? You can,

 

Alan Knowles  11:37

yeah, and I think it's why it's important to extend the smoking question as well. Now, so obviously, when you do an application with an insurer, you will read it verbatim as to what they actually say. But when you're initially speaking to someone and doing a fact, find it's very easy just to say, Are you a smoker or a non smoker? Have you smoked in the last 12 months? Well, we've learned very much that you extend that question to say, you know, have you smoked? Have you bit, have you used any nicotine tobacco products? You know, you extend that question out, but you're right. If you, if you get a declaration of something like cannabis, I would even go as far to say that even if they've not smoked it, I mean, I'm not talking this is a drug episode. If they've done it in a brownie, fair enough, that's probably a little bit different. But if they've used a pipe or a bomb, or anything that might be different, you know, that involves a level of inhalation with it. Yeah, I would say that that should be going down on, well, that's

 

Kathryn Knowles  12:29

the thing I was just going to say. Then if somebody does tell you that they've had cannabis, then, you know, without obviously, sorry, going into like laws and lots of information, it can be quite useful to potentially say, just checked, do you smoke the cannabis? Or do, you know, how do you take it? And you know, it's, it's not sort of like being too I don't think it's been too prying, but again, it's a case of, you know, it could be so easily missed that this person is actually a smoker. It's just that they class it slightly differently, but going to the vaping side of things, yep. And so we've mentioned nicotine, no nicotine. Non nicotine. Have mentioned that there's a 0% nicotine might be, you know, non smoker weights, things like that. But it is quite confusing. Is there anything that advisors need to be looking out for in the way that people are terming it, or anything like that to them? What is in the questions or what? So if somebody, if you said somebody nicotine or non nicotine, baby, is there anything? I mean, obviously you would think that most people would know. But is there anything that stands out?

 

Alan Knowles  13:26

Yeah. I mean, whenever I get anyone who says, Yes, I vape, I just ask the simple question after, does the vape contain nicotine? You know that you use, and people know that because they buy, they buy the ones. And being honest, the majority of people have nicotine in them. Most people do not have a 0% nicotine there. But if you do have somebody, it's important to know, because if you can get the non smoker rates going back to your earlier point, it might be half the price,

 

Kathryn Knowles  13:55

absolutely. And that's just a reminder, because I'm people probably not listening to the podcast in the past. I'm very sensitive to smells and things like that. And I know somebody and because they have ridiculous flavors, don't they? You love, no. Honestly, sometimes when you're walking past someone, you know, you get hit by that old fashioned kind of like train cloud of smoke. And it's just like, Oh, I just it. And this the thing, I think it was watermelon and kiwi. And I was just like, oh my word that smells.

 

Alan Knowles  14:23

How did you know it was watermelon kiwi? All right, not

 

Kathryn Knowles  14:28

being vaping. You

 

Alan Knowles  14:29

walk past a stranger and you just like, No,

 

Kathryn Knowles  14:33

I'm not that good. No, no, they're very bad. I know them. And I was just like, oh my word that is just so vile. But you know, to each their own, but at least we know I'd never be a vapor because it was vile. Well,

 

Alan Knowles  14:44

You tempted me now because I like the sound of that. No, no,

 

Kathryn Knowles  14:47

no, no, right? So quick. Down for everybody. Run down for everybody. Alan and why are nicotine products? What? What's, what's the risks? What are you sure is worried about? Well,

 

Alan Knowles  14:57

I mean, obviously one, you've got the addictive Nick. Nature, nicotine is a highly, highly addictive substance, as we know, that's what was added to the tobacco to make cigarettes originally. You know, obviously have have that addictive element to them. So it does still carry risk. Now it whether it's tobacco from smoking cigarettes, whether it's nicotine from vaping, they all carry risks to the circularity system, they can increase the risk of cancer and heart attacks, so many things that they can lead to, as well as lung conditions, breathing problems. And vapes, for example, can still cause that, but it can still cause lung problems, and breathing problems because you are still inhaling that smoke. There's also been some studies and some some instances into things called popcorn lung as well, which is where there becomes restrictions around the the lungs. And again, do

 

Kathryn Knowles  15:47

you know what? It's popcorn lung? I've been thinking cauliflower lung. No, that's cauliflower ear for rugby players. Ah, yeah. I was just, I've been convinced myself going into cauliflower lungs, as we like, prepping for this. But popcorn lung is absolutely the

 

Alan Knowles  15:59

right one. I could imagine them, you know, in that cauliflower factory, where they're breathing in all the cauliflower flavor. Well, I

 

Kathryn Knowles  16:04

don't think that's happening the popcorn factory, either. So there you go. So

 

Alan Knowles  16:07

it was a flavoring. It was one of the flavorings. Begins with D. I can't remember the name of it, but it was watermelon caveman. And it was, again, it was something that they were breathing in, yeah, unknowingly that they were adding to the popcorn, and that was causing these restrictions in the

 

Kathryn Knowles  16:22

air. I'm sure there's some. I'm sure it's cauliflower. There's something, though, about like, because it's something with the way that the lungs end up looking. And I'm sure there's something about cauliflower somewhere. Again, I could be making that up. Probably not good thing for me to keep saying that episodes, isn't it? But no, there's something, and that's a problem, I think, on the vaping side of things, because obviously, we all, we all know from what's being said medically, that vaping is better than smoking, and obviously it's seen as a step down to get you away from smoking cigarettes and but what the problem is, again, is that, you know, insurers use decades worth of data to do their risk tables, the pricing and everything, and with vaping, that information isn't there yet. I mean, we're maybe getting towards a decade or so, maybe a little bit longer. But what it had done is it had shown these issues, like Alan was saying, with the lung and, you know, and you could see that in the in the X rays and the different scans that they're doing. And the problem is they don't know the long term effects of that, in terms of how that's going to affect people's lifespans. So that's why there is still so much uncertainty, even if, with, you know, like you were saying majority of insurers, even if there was a 0% nicotine, just the fact that you're putting something in your body, you're inhaling something, that is what is causing the concern. I

 

Alan Knowles  17:30

think you can look at some of the the other risk factors as well. So obviously, the tobacco industry, the cigarettes and things, have had such a long time of obviously, you know, evolving, and if the right word is being regulated to an extent. Well, obviously vaping is new. There's lots of instances of knock off products and cheap products and people buying them off mates and things like that, and, you know, these different imports and things like that. But there's also, with the vapes as well, some of the amount of nicotine in some of them are crazy. I mean, you mentioned that the smoke plume that you walk through that's so much more than you would have had from a cigarette, because they're in huge amounts of smoke. But then as well, if they're having something with 2345, times as much nicotine as a cigarette would have had, yeah, well, then that's got its own complications,

 

Kathryn Knowles  18:15

absolutely. And we do also have as well. And I think this is important. I've got some stuff going on social at the moment, about like, different things in terms of, like, if people have this app, this condition, or that conditions, like cancer, stroke, diabetes, like, what can be available, insurance wise, and all this kind of thing. And, and I think what's important is that, you know, we also look at the fact that sometimes, if somebody is a smoker, when there are conditions, sometimes it's just a no, yeah,

 

Alan Knowles  18:41

yeah, you're absolutely right. So if you have say, we're looking at life insurance for a customer and they've had a heart attack, if they are a smoker and a current smoker, that will mean, to my knowledge, every single mainstream insurer will decline. So you end up going specialist. So not only does that customer have to pay more because they're a smoker, because the premiums already doubled, but then the ratings are probably going to be higher because with a specialist, so everything just gets confounded into a much, much bigger premium, but actually leads to a decline with a lot similar for diabetes, you know, insurers will not like somebody who is certainly a heavier smoker, along with diabetes. Income Protection. Cover is now quite, quite available for people with diabetes, but actually, majority will decline if that client is smoker or even a vapor because, again, they bundle, and I'm not saying whether I think this is right or wrong, but they bundle the vaping and the smoking and the nicotine gum all into one when they're assessing for underwriting as well.

 

Kathryn Knowles  19:40

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there was quite a lot in terms of that, if anybody, in a sense, if you go back through the diabetes episodes that we've had on this, you know, it's, it's the build up of sugar in the body, which then can lead to, sort of, like, even more things that will then have knock on effects to the cardiovascular system. And then it really bringing in the smoking as well that's affecting the breathing and the cardiovascular system. It's all about the blood get. Around the body well, and it can. And obviously, statistics do show in those instances, there are decades worth of, you know, data in terms of smoking and these conditions. And unfortunately, it does show quite a gloomy outlook, in a sense, for the long term life expectancy for people. So let's go on to the alcohol side of things. And what do we sometimes see in terms of issues for alcohol and getting insurance?

 

Alan Knowles  20:27

So, I mean, historically, it would have been levels, I guess, alcohol. So alcohol issues is probably a lot more prevalent now than, I think, what it has been in the past, or certainly something that we see a lot more. And actually, you know, the outlook and the view from insurers probably hasn't really changed. But, you know, we used to maybe come across some clients who had had alcohol dependency, who had issues relating to alcohol. They'd maybe been to AA or something like that. They'd had advice to stop drinking. People maybe drink 100 plus units a week, things like that. These would all be sort of real issues. Insurance companies generally tend to, like, see the sort of people with less than 30 units a week, you know, they will allow more than the recommended allowance, which is currently around about 14, I think, per week. But

 

Kathryn Knowles  21:14

this is where we're going to talk about, I've got a few issues to bring up with that. We'll come back onto that. Then I want to have more than 14. Yes, it's just, I'm talking about insurance talking about insurance. But, you know,

 

Alan Knowles  21:25

I think for you know, where we are, kind of right now is seeing a spike of alcohol related disclosures, and certainly where people have, maybe had increased levels, spoke to their GPS about it, had levels of concern, and a lot of this, I suspect, and from people I talk to, is linked to the pandemic, because a lot of people, and it was widely reported, increased alcohol consumption during the pandemic because they were at home and etc, etc, and for whatever reasons. So what we're now seeing is more people having to declare that they've received some level of advice to reduce alcohol consumption. And this, this, even in itself, can present problems, because if you look at the difference, the difference, I mean, obviously somebody drinking, let's say 100 units of alcohol per week. We all know that is far too much, and that is going to be damaging, and that is probably getting to a level of dependency, if that is becoming a regular thing. So we can all look at that and say, actually, you know, this is a risk, and understand why insurers would be concerned about that. But what we now see is actually people who are maybe drinking 20 units, about coal per week, been told to reduce. Now an insurance company would typically accept a client at 30 units a week, probably without a loading, depending which insurer you go to, I think some will even do 40 units a week, potentially. But then, if somebody's had alcohol, you know, a doctor said, well, actually you should put down that's above guidance. We've got to declare that now some insurers will decline any advice at all. If you've ever been advised to reduce alcohol consumption, they will decline. Not many, but some will some will decline. If you've had advice to reduce and you still drink. Well, actually, the difference between somebody who drinks 20 or 30 units per week and has been told that's a little bit too much as you probably drop it and still drops it to 10, to me, that is a much lower risk than the person who was drinking 100 units, and it's dropped theirs down to 10, because the person who's been drinking 100 units has probably had a level of dependency. So we are seeing much more complicated cases, I think, and ones where actually online systems do not necessarily capture all of this. The best advice I can give without going off on tangents on this is to speak to underwriters, speak to the insurers. It's probably because you will see this more and more now, but speak to the insurers and get that and get get a bit of a picture, get a story. What's happened with it? Yeah, I was

 

Kathryn Knowles  23:52

going to say that's the biggest issue that I'm seeing. Is this being advised to reduce because, like you say, you know that it used to be in the UK, quite standard from, like, the sort of guidance from the medical industry was, you know, like the NHS and peoples was, I think it was probably around 21 units. Was seen as pretty much, okay, not an issue. And then some point, there's been a kind of, like, the seem to have had a mini secret meeting where they've all gone, no, it needs to be 14 units now. And the problem is, is that it's not, I don't think that's been like, broadcast anywhere necessarily. I mean, I'm sure it has been somewhere, but it's certainly not something that I've seen. But maybe it's because I don't really drink alcohol

 

Alan Knowles  24:30

Tom I think it's been that way for quite a while. So it's may have been just, yeah,

 

Kathryn Knowles  24:34

  1. So the problem is, though it's like, I say it's that it's been like, near that 20 units, and it's and it's that's not been an issue. And for insurers, 20 units isn't an issue. But if you speak to someone, speak to a GP, and it's over 14, they have to say, well, guidance is, you know, 14 units a week max, so you should reduce it. That's immediately you've had advice to reduce, which is just so, so frustrating, because it's almost that thing of like, well, if. You've not spoken to anybody you and you're drinking 20 units, that's not an issue. But because you are just, even if it's just like a regular health checkup, you know that you get certain ages, or just generally, you're popping into the jeep and they ask a roughly about your lifestyle because they've not seen you for a while, you can suddenly get this thing there. So it's it is definitely about speaking to the underwriters, just being mindful of it. So one of the things that we do, well, I tend to do when I'm speaking for you, I'm doing my fact find is Alison, how much do you drink an average week? See what they have to say. And I'll just just throw it in there. Say, Have you ever been advised to reduce because you can be surprised at how that can suddenly pop up and you're like, oh, wow, I didn't expect this. Again, massively changing the insurer that you're going to potentially really changing, the the the, sorry, the the premiums that you're looking at. And with a lot of people, it can just be that it's quite a simple and, and it's just a simple thing of, like, going to a different insurer, where there's, like, quite a there's more flexibility and understanding the differences between medical world and insurance world. But sometimes at the same point, you can get someone who's drinking quite a lot, and, you know, the insurers do want to know that. The other thing I want to say, because you picked up about, like, you know, people who've had advice and maybe been to AA and things like that, is that going to AA in the past, or even going to AA now, doesn't mean it's no in terms of getting insurance. So that's really, really really important, because people tend to think, Oh, well, like, even for mental health, people think, well, if I'm taking medication, the insurers won't like that. Or if I'm seeing a counselor, people aren't like that. And in fact, if I'm at AA, then they won't like it. That isn't correct. The insurers are actually very much a case of where you're actively getting support and you're actively seeking support, to be healthier, to understand what you're going through, or even, you know, for a lot of people with AA, obviously, they then go on to volunteer and support other people. And so, you know, don't be, I would say, don't be scared about sharing that kind of information. Because actually, sometimes, and there are especially certain like circumstances that I can think of in terms of underwriting, where it would actually be a much better outcome if you were getting that support and if you were reaching out to people.

 

Alan Knowles  27:11

What I would just add to that is if somebody has, say, sought help from alcohol services, or somebody has had alcohol dependency, anything that's getting towards that level, the chances are an insurer will now want to see them as teetotal. So obviously, absolutely positive that insurance can be looked at. And he's, you know, we're proof of that, that we get cover for a lot of people who have had previous addiction problems with alcohol. But if it's been at that level, it is different to the person who's just gone to the GP, and they've said, I should drink a little bit less. Because, yeah, the people who've just been advised to drink a little bit less will probably still get covered if they still drink a bit the people who have had dependency AA, alcohol support services most likely need to be teetotal. Yeah.

 

Kathryn Knowles  27:54

And I think, yeah, that's really, really important to note. Okay, so again, another quick run down for everybody. So what is the concern about alcohol? A

 

Alan Knowles  28:04

lot, Amy alcohol, I say, don't quote me on this. I'm on a podcast, so specifically, quote you a bit late for this. But I believe that alcohol is probably the big, you know, the biggest killer in terms of drugs in in the world, I would say. And I'm sure I've seen that statistic plenty of places. The difference is, it's a legal drug. It's one that we pay for, a one that we use. But you know, the damages from alcohol abuse and misuse are huge, and it can lead to cancer, it can lead to, you know, arterial problems. It can lead to heart trouble. It can increase the risk of diabetes, raising your HB, 1c, reading. It can increase your blood pressure, affect your cholesterol, it can affect your liver. So obviously, we all know about cirrhosis and fibrosis and things like that.

 

Kathryn Knowles  28:50

We don't all know about cirrhosis and fibrosis, because what we do, we do know this, but people listening, so basically, your livers quite poorly. Yeah, that's that's what those mean levels

 

Alan Knowles  29:00

of scarring on the liver, basically. And actually, if somebody's got cirrhosis of the liver, again, we go back to that whole thing that every single mainstream insurer will decline. Doesn't mean they're uninsurable, but you get into more the worlds of specialists again. So there are lots and lots of potential impacts from the misuse of alcohol. But also there's the situation of that's the right word, possible impacts for it as well. You know, I mean, somebody who's in under the influence is more likely to fall over and bang their head, you know, because they're not as aware of the surroundings. They're not as not as quick with the reactions and things like that. So lots and lots of potential risk factors that could be as well.

 

Kathryn Knowles  29:39

If you, if you, if you were somebody who was drinking quite significant amount of alcohol as well, it's unlikely that you're being quite fit and active as well. You You're probably quite stationary. So again, that increased risk of a higher BMI, the diabetes starts to come into where the heart health starts to be affected quite a bit, absolutely. And

 

Alan Knowles  29:56

actually, if somebody's not putting on weight because they're drinking a lot, probably means. Not Eating Enough, and therefore the nutritional deficiencies and everything like that, that's going to happen as a result. But it actually just made me think of one other thing, and a probably relevant one to sort of point out, but insurers really, really dislike and completely understandably, but say, for example, someone who's been disqualified from driving as a result of driving under the influence, because not only does that show that they've maybe drank too much, but it shows a poor decision, making a risk, taking that obviously they wouldn't that, you know, they wouldn't like to see so, yeah, I guess that's

 

Kathryn Knowles  30:32

quite a common question. Isn't it? Like, have you been banned or convicted and dangerous driving, anything like that? Because, like you say, it is to do with choices. You know that when we come to cigarettes, alcohol is all about lifestyle choices, and they're just trying to see, sort of like, what kind of risks that person is being subjected to, when we mentioned, as well, the the liver. So you know that specifically, the cirrhosis of the liver, one thing that these shows are looking at specifically, if there has been quite a query over how much alcohol is, what's known as the lft. So the liver function test, and that's just a number. It comes from a blood test, and basically, your liver should be within a certain number range. If it's outside of that, it means it's it's not working exactly as we would hope it to. It's not completely what we'd say in the healthy ranges, which means that, you know, with anything in our bodies, it all has a knock on effect to the other. So if the liver isn't working as well, then another organs then probably trying to then work harder to compensate for the liver, which then means that that organ isn't working as well because it's being forced to do and it's to knock on effect to everything. So you know, don't be surprised if an insurer potentially says, depending upon the history. Well actually, before we would want to ensure this person we would like to see either report from the GP or maybe for them to even have a medical so that we can just establish what their liver functioning is doing. And that would be something really important to have. And I think because sometimes people can find that kind of thing a bit insulting when you say to them that might not happen. So one of the things I try to do to the people is just say, Look, you know, this is actually, this isn't unusual. You know, this is, it's quite normal actually, to have things like medicals happen. And personally, I really like them, and this is a way to sort of phrase it to clients, is that I like them, because then it means, when it's underwritten, we know that the insurance knows exactly what's going on in your body in terms of your blood in terms of your urine, your blood pressure, your cholesterol, things like that. So if there's ever a query at points of claim, well, were they truthful? You know, what was their liver doing at this point? Well, we can just go, Well, you had the medical so you knew exactly what their liver was like or what it was doing when you knew what their blood pressure was doing at that time. It's like a free mini health MLT for them. And the important other side of things as well is that if something comes back on that, so let's say the liver function wasn't in normal ranges, then it's a really, really positive thing that it's being called, not positive necessarily in terms of getting the insurance in place, but very positive in being a case of, right? So your liver isn't within normal ranges, right? So we need to get this sorted. Because the whole thing is, is that, you know, we want these shows there to be a backup, but it's all about this person being healthy, and everybody wants them to live as long and fruitful a life as possible. So if we can do anything that identifies any kind of issues early on, then surely that's for the better. Yes, frustrating for the insurance, but in terms of their health and their life, brilliant to get that identified and get it sorted straight away. Yeah, right. Couple of case studies then. So case study one, so I've just got these to give you a couple of examples in terms of pricing. The second case study is where we've had to go, quite specialist, and you'll probably see that from where we're going through it. So case study one, we have somebody who is a smoker and has an alcohol history too. So the early 50s, they've been a smoker in the last 12 months. So they are classed as being a smoker in terms of the alcohol about nine to 10 years prior to the application, they did go into rehab for a week for a detox. This is specifically for alcohol, and they've been drinking 30 units over three days every week. Around that time, so much more, sort of like what's cost us, like the binge drinking side of things. So having quite a lot it was affecting them. This is certainly not the level of alcohol that would cause maybe everybody to feel that they would go into a rehab or a detox or anything that would necessarily be, you know, declarable, necessarily, in terms of where the insurers are starting to get a bit uncertain about 30 units a week. But for this person, it had been something that had affected them. So they did seek out that support, and they took medication for six months to help, and they actually didn't stop drinking straight away. So that's quite relevant to what you were saying. Alan, so they actually stopped drinking about seven to eight years ago. So from the time of going to rehab, getting the treatment, it was about two years before they actually became t total. They do attend AA, and they also help run the sessions. They have a mortgage. So we did 135,000 of decreasing life insurance over 25 years, and that came to 92 pounds per month. And that was a mixture of being a smoker and also that alcohol history. For the second case study, we have someone who is had quite a bit of alcohol in the past, and they were mid 50s that were an ex smoke, so 10 years ago. So that wasn't coming into play. But the other, the two other things kind of come into play a little bit. So we had a BMI of 42.9 which is something that most insurers would be wanting to look at a bit more, possibly starting to find it really reducing the amount of insurers we can look at the alcohol had actually been four years prior to the application, and they've been drinking 125 units a week, and that went on for a period of six months, and they have been sober for three and a half years when they came to us, and it did attend AA meetings. There's also some information in terms of mental health. They're taking some medication. They were doing some cognitive behavior therapy. And I think what's really important here is that, just to say, if you do have mental health, and in a sense, it's quite mild, you are taking a low medication, some cognitive behavior therapy, that's not necessarily going to have an influence on your options for insurance, but when you have something like this, where there's quite a large alcohol dependency that was going on for a while, you can sometimes find that the mental health, even if it's a smaller amount, is taken into account just a case of it's it's not necessarily going to massively affect anything, but it's just an extra consideration that

 

Alan Knowles  36:23

is there. I was just going to say self medication is probably what you're looking for there. If somebody's medicating themselves with alcohol, then obviously the two things combined, yes, don't particularly help. But the more time that's passed, yeah, the better,

 

Kathryn Knowles  36:36

exactly. So with that, it'd be a case of saying, right, well, in terms of the mental health, how long has that been diagnosed for? You know, have they started the medication since, possibly stopping drinking alcohol? Is that being consistent? Are they keeping in line? Are they keeping in touch, keeping in line with their medications? I'm not saying keeping in line like are they behaving themselves? I realized that sounded terrible, you know. Are they keeping in line with the prescription? Are they attending and speaking to the GP when they're being asked to speak to them, just as like those regular prescription reviews, things like that. So we did have to go quite special here, just because of we had a mix. The main things were the mix of the BMI, the amount of alcohol, and still, in a sense, quite the recency. It wasn't in the insurance terms of that long ago. So for this person who's 250,000 pounds of level life insurance arranged over five years, and that was 390 pounds per month. So there's our case studies, there's the episode. Thank you for listening everybody, and thank you Alan for joining me. Thank you very welcome. Thank you. Next time you're gonna be joining me again, we don't skip you for an episode. We get you back straight away, indeed, and I'm gonna be talking about chronic fatigue or me, for people who are more familiar with it that way, I will pronounce it in the full term of me when we actually do it. Get practicing. I am going to be practicing. I'm going to do my absolute best. And obviously would love to hear you, see, you hear you, see, you see, to have you back with us, even for the practice for the next one look on our website, practical hyphen protection.co.uk. For any other episodes for your CPD certificate. And don't forget, if you've listened to this as part of your work, you can get a CP certificate on the website too, thanks to our sponsors, next gen planners. So thank you very much, everybody. And bye, Alan, bye, you.

Transcript Disclaimer:

Episodes of the Practical Protection Podcast include a transcript of the episode's audio. The text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record.

We often discuss health and medical conditions in relation to protection insurance and underwriting, always consult with a healthcare professional if you are concerned about any medical conditions and symptoms we have covered in any episode.

Episodes

Kathryn Knowles discussing Critical Illness Cover in Trust
Episode 3 – Critical Illness Cover in Trust

October 23, 2025

Coeliac disease life insurance, critical illness cover and income protection
Episode 2 – Coeliac Disease

October 9, 2025

Kathryn Knowles discussing joint life second death vs single life insurance
Episode 1 – Joint Life Second Death vs Single Life Cover

September 18, 2025

Bowel Cancer and Me - Phil Jeynes
Episode 13 – Bowel Cancer and Me

July 10, 2025

Early Onset Colo Rectal Cancer with Kate Baldry, Hannover Re
Episode 12 – Early Onset Colo-Rectal-Cancer

July 5, 2025

Kathryn Knowles and Lisa Balboa from Hannover Re, discuss AI and insurance
Episode 11 – AI and Insurance

June 12, 2025

IHT Case Studies with Kathryn Knowles
Episode 10 – IHT Case Studies

May 29, 2025

Chronic Fatigue Syndrome with Kathryn Knowles and Alan Knowles
Episode 9 – Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

May 15, 2025

International Protection with Lee Doran and Kathryn Knowles
Episode 7 – International Protection

April 17, 2025

Jo Miller and Kathryn Knowles, discussing income protection
Episode 6 – IPTF 2025

April 3, 2025