Kathryn:       Hi everyone, this is episode three of season five and I have Phil Jeynes from Reassured with me, Alan Knowles from Cura Financial Services and Neal Cross from Money Supermarket with me today.  Hi everyone!

Alan:           Hi!

Phil:             Hello.

Neal:           Hello.

Kathryn:       We are on day two of our Mental Health Awareness Week and it’s all about how people can access insurance in a different way that suits their mental health needs.  This is the Practical Protection Podcast.  So the first thing we’re going to cover today is that obviously we’re talking with three people that come from companies with very different routes to accessing insurance.  They all provide a really useful service for people that are wanting to access insurance and each of them has a slightly different way of doing things.  And I think it’s important to say from the start that all of these routes work well for different people and they each have a service that will suit some people with mental health conditions more than others.  The key thing is being open so that people can make an informed decision about the best way for them to access insurance based upon their own needs and comfort levels.  So first of all Phil, I’m going to come to you, if that’s okay?

Phil:             Fine.

Kathryn:       Brilliant.  So obviously you work at Reassured which is a firm that offers what’s known as a non-advised service.  So for anyone that’s listening, can you please explain in a sense, what that means, how a non-advised service works and how that can support people that are living with a mental health condition?

Phil:             Yes, so non-advised sales is pretty much exactly what it says on the tin.  So when you speak to one of our agents about buying life insurance, they’re going to give you all the information, all the support in terms of the application process and explaining how it works but what they’re not going to do is make a recommendation that this particular product or this particular amount of cover is right for you.  So it would really suit somebody who has a good idea of what they want to buy and just wants to really check their understanding and have a nice simple route to purchase it.  So I guess anybody that – I mean, different types of mental health issues differ greatly obviously, but anybody that’s thinking, “I’m a bit worried about this, I just want a confirmation from somebody who knows what they’re talking about that what I’m buying is what I think it is,” then non-advised sales works really well.

Kathryn:       As I say, I think that’s important because, you know, with some people in terms of their mental health, it is sometimes that little bit of a someone going, “Yeah, it’s actually – you’re alright, you’ve understood it,” kind of thing.  But then also as well, in terms of mental health, we often think obviously people with mental health as having potentially a vulnerability and not everybody with mental health is, in a sense, vulnerable.  There are very different conditions, very different levels of symptoms and severity that can affect people.  And also as well, with some people with mental health, they really need to feel like they’re in control of it as well.  So actually, you know, in some ways, it kind of puts them – they’re in this kind of middle ground where they kind of – they want support, but they don’t want to be really man-handled, not man-handled through it, but you know what I mean!  They don’t want to be really sort of like led through it, which is obviously really, as I say, useful for some people and – if we quickly go over to you Alan then and just explain how that then I suppose – in a sense, it differs when you go to an advice thing.  So obviously you’re from Cura Financial Services, a firm that I know very well of course, can you give us a bit of background about how the advised service side of things work and how that can be a really good option for people that are living with a mental health condition?

Alan:           Yes, sure so, you know, for an advice service I think you know, just to explain first this can even have multiple channels that come into it because different advisors work in different ways, so it’s probably a little bit unique and worth covering.  So with advisors you can have traditional face to face where somebody usually comes round to the house or you go to a coffee shop or whatever and you talk about, you know, sort of needs, etc.  You can do it obviously via Zoom, which – or Teams, Google Meet or whatever it is that people use, which we’re all very accustomed to now.  Or what’s becoming much more popular now is over the telephone where, you know, much like, you know, as I imagine Phil would do – Phil’s team at Reassured would do, it would be more over the telephone.  And, you know, I think when we’re talking about anything to do with mental health, obviously again different routes work for different people but the telephone conversation can help to remove that face from the conversations, so if somebody is nervous about having a conversation or about disclosing certain things about their mental health background, they might find it easier over the telephone for example than what they would doing face to face.

But I guess a real difference for me is that is that advisors will need ultimately to take more time.  The initial conversation is much more likely to be longer.  And for some people, that’ll work, for some people that won’t work as well.  The reason behind that is that they want to make – or they need to make a recommendation, you know.  It can almost help to remove some of the anxiety around the purchase because as you know, as Phil said, if you know what you want, absolutely fine, the non-advised service works really well.  But what happens if you don’t know what you want?  What happens if you’re not sure?  What happens if you think you need one thing, but actually, you know, it’s something different?  That’s where advice can really come in because it can help to remove that anxiety.  But you’ve got to be willing to almost invest a little bit more upfront.  I often think it’s a little bit like when you do your will.

So, and obviously, Kathryn you’ll know this very well, since it was you and I who did this.  When we did our first will, when we got together we, you know, we basically did a DIY kit, we went and got it ourselves, we knew what we wanted, we wanted it simple, we wanted it straightforward, we wanted it quick.  And to be honest, in our 20s, we didn’t actually want to really sit down with somebody who was going to advise us and take lots of our time, so we bought a kit and we did it ourselves.  But then when we had kids, we thought, “Actually, do you know what?  We probably need to do this right, we need to do this better, we need some guidance, we need some advice.”  So we went to see a solicitor and we sat down and we got advice from it, you know, and it did – it took longer, it took longer for us sitting down and having those conversations.  But I think, you know, for me the other thing that I would say, where the advice can really help people, I know I said it might take longer upfront, but it’s trying to find the right product to suit somebody.  So overall, it can save time, especially if somebody’s got a more severe mental health condition for example and they need more complex underwriting or they need advice.  And I will caveat this by saying a good advisor, you know, a good advisor should be able to help find that right insurer or that best route, hopefully to market but in exchange for a, you know, sort of a – more of a upfront conversation.

Kathryn:       Absolutely.  And I think, you know, it’s fair to say as well, you know, with everybody on the call that, you know, it’s no secret at all that, you know, ourselves and a number of other brokers, you know, obviously because for anybody who doesn’t know, I’m part of Cura Financial Services as well, you know, as a advice service, it does sometimes give us routes to products and there are some insurers that are only available through an advice service and some of them are very specifically designed for people with a mental health condition.  So it could well be that somebody maybe does go through some of these other routes, potentially a comparison site, potentially non-advised and they’re not able to necessarily find what they want.  But an advised route, they might have just been a specialised product there.  But that is for somebody, as we say, who’s maybe got a stronger mental health history that’s certainly not what is sort of like the usual for a lot of people with mental health history.  But it is worthwhile having that there as a bit of knowledge as well.

And if we come over to you Neal now and talk through things.  Obviously, you’re from Money Supermarket and it would be really good to hear in a sense the processes that you have in place as a comparison site to help people who obviously have a mental health condition who – and maybe like Alan says, you know, sort of like, when you’re sometimes doing things and you’re starting off, you do have a dabble a bit on the comparison sites and things and you do have a look and what kind of things happen then if somebody is going through your system and they do have a mental health condition?

Neal:           Yeah, sure.  Before I do, I just want to say I completely agree with Phil and Alan, so you guys may not know, but I’ve worn all your hats.  So, I’ve been an advisor, I’ve been a non-advised telephone operator and more recently, in the last few years, it’s been driving the kind of digital online at Money Supermarket.  And I think what Money Supermarket or any kind of online kind of comparison site can do is somebody can go online and very, very quickly check whether they have – can get insurance online – can get it quickly.  So we use a fully underwritten comparison service which allows people to assess their full medical situation and at the end of it, hopefully, a large proportion of people will get a price they can buy straight away.  But that only ticks one box.  That just gives them our price.  What that doesn’t do is tell them how much they should have, which insurer, how long they should take it for.  And we do provide a lot of help and guidance online to assist with that.  But the practical reality is that not everybody will want to purchase at that point or will need to speak to an advisor.  So we do have a signposting service to a broker who assists I guess with our offline telephony sales and I think through that it allows people to buy how they want to buy.  And I think that’s really, really important.  They can – if they want to buy online, they’re comfortable with it, they can do that, they don’t have to opt in for a telephone call, that’s fine.  If they just want to do a quick search online, that’s fine as well.  The other end of the scale, you’ve got people who really do know and need advice, or at least speak to somebody.  And when they come to our comparison site, the reality is not many people actually do that.

So there’s this huge portion of people in the middle, who know they need life insurance but they won’t call somebody.  And that, I think, is the very interesting part of people where I think as an industry we need to be better at engaging with them and this could, you know, people of course with – whether it be a mental health condition or otherwise, because those people have expressed an interest and, you know, how can we make sure that they have the option, whether it’s online, whether it’s by phone, to gain access to insurance.  Because they clearly need it and want it, if they’re searching for it.  The only other thing I’d add is that some of the things we have experimented with and I think will be coming further down the line, things like live chat, so the reality is that, you know, people may not have time or don’t want to speak to somebody.  We all fear, you know, I got a knock on the door just before this, with a guy trying to sell us windows and stuff like that.  We all fear that kind of phone call.  But on live chat, you can kind of distance yourself a little bit away from it.

And we actually get – we have trialled it and piloted it recently and not only is it a great kind of – I don’t want to say sales tool but that’s, you know, ultimately kind of – what we’re trying to do is to drive customers to protect themselves.  But it’s a very useful insight tool as well.  You know, you can answer those quickfire questions, they don’t have to go away left, you know, feeling uncomfortable or unanswered, so yeah – no, I think as I say, all the routes to market I think are great.  I’ve worn all the hats – yes, so I think through Money Supermarket we offer the online option as well as signposting if needed.

Kathryn:       Which I think is perfect, because one of the big things ‘cos I do chat with mental health charities, you know, quite often and one of the biggest concerns is – with a lot of people is this fear of judgement.  You know, they’re – they want to speak to somebody and, you know, some people are quite happy speaking to an advisor, or an agent and going, “You know what, actually this is my mental health – this is what it is, what can you do for me?” kind of thing.  But then there is a lot of people, like you say, probably those people in the middle who are maybe bouncing about a little bit, they’re kind of like, “Well, I want to speak to someone, but I don’t want to talk, I don’t want to relive, you know, that’s a big thing, I don’t want to relive what I’ve been through, I don’t want to talk to anyone about it.”  There’s the people who don’t want people to see their medical records potentially and, you know, it’s – what’s nice is that obviously having that ability for people to possibly compare, obviously online, it gives them a little bit of a stepping stone into things to go, “Well actually, I can do this online without having to speak to anybody.”

I know what we’ve done in our company as well and I’m sure many other firms do as well is, you know, we do give people the option, it’s like, “Do you want to speak to us or do you want to do this in a sense by email for a little bit?  Is that going to be more comfortable for you?”  And I think that can really help people and allay some of the fears as well.  I mean, obviously in an advice space, that does need to in a sense move at some point to a bit more generally more of an interaction than email because obviously we just need to make sure that we tick boxes in terms of compliance.  But I think something that’d be quite good to open up the floor to all of you.  So, I’ll going to try and be careful in what, just to who’s going to suddenly jump in first on my screen.

Phil:             I’ll put my hand up Kathryn, I’ll put my hand up.

Kathryn:       Oh right.

Phil:             We do something pretty similar actually, so as you quite rightly say, the vast majority of our customers deal with us over the phone.  We do have the ability, like Money Supermarket, for customers to buy online but the vast majority, as Neal says, will start there and then will end up on the phone with us.  And I think he’s absolutely right in that a lot of those will be begrudgingly and whether that’s because of their mental health issue or just because, you know, more and more people, you know, when I order a takeaway, if I can order it without having to speak to someone, then that’s my preference and that’s nothing to do with, you know, an anxiety I have about it, it’s just that I find it quicker and easier so it might just be a lot of people go, “Oh well, okay, I’ll have to do it.”  So we do a lot of training with our staff around mental health and we’ve really doubled down on that in the last year or two – not least because we’re mindful that our own staff, you know, we’re a big company, we’ve got around 500 agents on the phones doing this job and over the last couple of years, you know, we’ve seen a massive increase in mental health issues amongst our employees, so we’ve very keen that a) we show that we’re supporting them and therefore that they’re able to talk in an informed and sensitive way to the customers as well who are no doubt, you know, no doubt spiking in terms of their mental health issues in the last couple of years as well.

So, I think yeah, trying to get people more sensitive to how you speak to somebody over the phone is really key and then having those signposting options.  So we have an advised team that we can signpost people to if they really are falling into that category of saying, “Look actually I don’t really know what I need here,” that’s not for us, we can pass that to an advised firm and we have a specialist team that looks after – I mean, the industry calls it impaired lives – I know Kathryn, Alan, you’ve got a much better term.

Kathryn:       I like the word quirky.  I don’t know if everyone likes the word quirky, but I consider myself quirky and obviously, you know, I’m very much what the industry classes as an impaired life, you know, there’s no way I can have like personal income protection cover, critical illness cover now, you know, a little bit debatable.  Luckily I already have it.  But, you know, it’s yeah, impaired, I don’t like it.

Phil:             Impaired is the industry term but, you know, I don’t like that.  You know, you’re probably right Kathryn, not everyone will like quirky but, you know, I don’t think we’ll ever settle on something that everyone’s a fan of, so let’s call it quirky for the purpose of this podcast at least.  So yeah, so we have a quirky lives team that can pick up those customers where, you know, the non-advised kind of journey for want of a better word, doesn’t suit everybody and there are certain people that get part way through that journey and there are those blockers that the industry puts in the way.  And mental health is clearly one of those where you can start down this rabbit warren of answering questions and you can feel that the customer’s becoming uncomfortable and, you know, if this is their worst fear of why they didn’t want to get on the phone with someone in the first place.  So we put those people into a specialist team who are trained in dealing with not just mental health issues but all types of different underwriting areas where you can be a bit more specialist.  And as you quite rightly said at the start Kathryn, where you can divert them to firms that offer that type of product specifically rather than trying to push them down this funnel for quote, unquote, the, you know, the normal life.  So yeah, so that’s how we deal with it but I think the biggest thing really is just around that training and sensitivity so that you can recognise when you’re dealing with somebody that’s not enjoying themselves as much as you’d expect them to.

Kathryn:       Absolutely.  I think that has kind of like answered something, I think you’ve kind of psychically got the question I was going to throw out to the floor and just went with it there because I was going to say, what’s kind of like the biggest hurdles that we kind of feel are in place for people being able to get cover if they have mental health?  Whether or not that’s kind of partly the speaking to people, so the empathy that we’re able to put across, the way that we’re able to do different communications if they need it a certain way.  And potentially even towards, you know, what are the hurdles that we’re maybe seeing or feeling towards the insurers or the underwriters maybe?

Phil:             Yeah.  So as – a bit like Neal, I’ve worn various hats over the couple of decades I’ve been in the life insurance industry and certainly one of those was as an insurer.  So I’ve seen that quite close hand.  I think the fact of the matter is, the biggest hurdle we need to remove as an industry is that our approach to lots of different medical issues, but particularly mental health, is out of step.  It’s behind the curve.  So, you know, I’ve got teenage children and so I see that cultural shift between the last five or 10 years or so and longer ago, where we are encouraged – we encourage each other to be open about mental health issues.  We’re accepting of the fact that this isn’t a sub-section of society that is somehow damaged or broken, this is everybody and on any certain day, you could have a mental health issue.  Some are more susceptible than others, like anything else in the world.  But everybody’s on that spectrum at some – to some degree on any given day.  And our underwriting approach, as an insurance industry, is more blunt than that.  It is really, you know, “What incidents have you had?  Have you ever?  Did you ever?  What do you think about that?”  And it’s very, very binary about – you’re either in this pot of people that are difficult to insure or you’re not and you’re a quote unquote clean life.

So I think it’s a massive challenge, because I do recognise it, as I say, from the insurer’s side of the fence, that what you’re trying to do is just sort out where you’re likely to be paying a claim and making sure that you don’t disappoint people by giving them a policy that’s no use to them.  But the Q&A that the customer has to go through to get to that point is to my mind out of step because if you ask, you know, and there’s still these catch-all questions out that insurers ask, you know, “Have you ever suffered from stress?”  Well, 15 years ago you might have asked that and I’d have said, “No, of course not because I haven’t had a day off as a result of it, or I haven’t, you know, felt suicidal as a result of it,” and that might have been my mindset.  Nowadays if you asked me “Do you suffer with stress?”  I’d say, “Of course I do, everyone does, you know, I’m in a relatively senior role in a sales company, you know, it would be weird if I didn’t, wouldn’t it?”  You know, I’ve got – as I say, two teenage children, it would be weird if I didn’t suffer with stress now and again.  So yeah, I think our perception of what we mean by mental health issues has changed massively and perhaps the insurance industry hasn’t quite kept up.

Kathryn:       I think that’s absolutely and that’s something I’ve certainly been saying for quite a long time now.  It’s like that thing of like, it’s the whole thing of like, “What’s a suicidal thought?”  You know, I mean that’s a massive one for me, it’s like, “What’s a suicidal thought?”  And I’ll always say, you know, when I’m chatting to people and different things and I’ll go, “Right to me there’s kind of like three – there’s three versions, there’s the version where it’s a case of just going, “I’ve just had a really stressful day and just gone, “Oh you know what, it’d be better if I wasn’t here,” which is not an actual, you know, for a lot of people, I have to be careful because obviously in terms of, you know, sort of like, especially mental health charities, there will potentially be some people where that is a start of, you know, they would say is a start of something more but, you know, there are some times that people can think that and it’s not an actual – “I’m going to do something,” it’s just a moment of going grrr to the world kind of thing.  You’ve then got the person who has maybe, I don’t know, seen something on TV and thought, “Oooh, that TV show, someone’s just, you know, attempted suicide.  Ooh if I did it, I wouldn’t be able to do it that way, you know, that’s not – if I was going to do it, I would have to do it –”  You know, and it’s not a sense of, “I’m actually thinking of me doing it, I’m just thinking that looked really not nice, I wouldn’t be able to do that.”

And then there is obviously the person who is actually planning it and going forward.  I can see that Neal and Alan are both wanting to jump in there. Neal, what were you wanting to jump in with?

Neal:           Just to back up with the discussion we’re having really.  So, I was at an underwriters’ forum with other humans about two years ago which was brilliant.  But this was the kind of topic of discussion, it was around mental health questions and the bit that somebody asked in the room I think was, “What’s the percentage disclosure rate of mental health?” and I can’t remember the percentage, but it was surprisingly low.  And it’s exactly like, you know, Phil said, I mean online, we don’t see 100% disclosure, you know, in terms of mental health conditions, but people may feel that they’re, “If I answer this and they say yes, is it going to affect my price? Oh, maybe I’ll say no.”  Now we know as an industry that if it’s a little bit of stress, a little bit of anxiety, you know, it’s not dramatic, it’s not escalated into anything more significant or serious, then it’s more than likely not going to impact your life insurance.  An individual who’s filling in this form or, you know, certainly if they’re doing it themselves online, doesn’t get that feedback, they just go, “Oooh, well I’d better put it down, because if I don’t, it won’t pay out but if I put it down, the price is going to be too expensive.”

So there’s this kind of reciprocal thing and I think – so yeah, I think in terms of how the industry handles disclosure of mental health can get better.  I think that includes Money Supermarket within that as well.  I think we need to educate people that, you know, importance of disclosure is vitally important but acknowledging the fact that just like I would have done when I was on the phone, advised and non-advised, acknowledging the fact that, “Look, this will – or won’t likely affect your premium.”  You know, it’s a factual thing.  So yeah – no, I don’t know what you think Alan in terms of your – I guess advised approach?

Alan:           Thanks everyone for your thoughts.  I mean I think yeah, I completely agree.  And there’s a few things for me that I come across and this isn’t advised, non-advised, online – this is industry-wide for me.  I think, you know, stigma is still there to an extent or fear of stigma.   think it’s getting less which is good and obviously we need to address that.  We need to tell people not to worry and we understand and, you know, show compassion and show empathy when people are making disclosures.  And especially if we are on the telephone and even adapting to online which, you know, I know Money Supermarket do this very well but almost pre-empting that these questions are coming, you know, these questions are coming and we are going to ask these questions and almost here’s why and are you okay to continue?

Language for me is a big part.  You talked about impaired lives earlier Phil and yeah, you’re absolutely right, I can’t stand the word.  It ultimately means broken and it’s – for me it just – it’s damaging.  It doesn’t work, it’s not something that you should refer to a person as.  But the same applies for mental health.  You know, the word and so commit suicide as an example is a phrase that shouldn’t really be used.  But yet, everybody still does it.  You know, it’s not the right word.  Commit is a crime and ultimately it’s a word that we are all advised now not to use, because it can make people feel quite bad.  So, you know, trying to take one’s life, attempting suicide, things like that are better ways – obviously, it’s always a difficult conversation still to have.  So I think to me, you know, you mentioned education Neal and 100%, I think education and awareness is a big part of that.

Another area and this is hugely to do with vulnerability as well is repeating ourselves.  How many times do we need to re-ask the same questions, because we’ve gone to a different insurance company or somebody goes through one journey and then they’ve got to go through another journey, because another insurer won’t ask them, we’ve almost got to repeat those questions again so it’s putting people through that again and again.  So there are things that we can do as an industry that are better.  So – and Kathryn, you know this one really well, because it’s something I really want the industry to adopt and, you know, I think we should talk about this more, but I think we should have a 10-year forget rule on suicide attempts and thoughts.  You know, I mean I – and I quote this one quite often, but I remember speaking to a lady who was in her 40 and she’d tried to take her life three times when she was a teenager.  Now, most insurers, if you go to them, will say, “Anything more than one or two attempts and it’s a no.”  And it’s like, well that was 30 years ago, that was such a long time ago, how is that relevant today when things have been addressed and changed and surely these should be looked into.

And do you know what, some insurance companies are doing really good things and saying, “Well, actually we won’t just say no, we will look at this manually.  We talked – we will talk to the distributor and we will try and do something,” but not everybody is.  And I just think, you know, what – if it’s such a long time ago, should we really still be taking it into account and making people dredge up what happened, you know, potentially when they were teenagers?  It just – it just seems wrong and I think something we could do better with.

Phil:             That’s a really interesting point Alan because, you know, if you were asking somebody about, you know, how many times they’d broken their leg and they said, “Well it was three times in the course of two years,” you’d think, “Wow, that’s awful.”  But if they said, “Well, that’s at a time where I was playing, you know, semi-professional football twice a week and I haven’t played that for 10 years,” you’d probably think, “Well okay, well that’s not really much of a risk any more, is it?”  And I think, you know, we don’t take the same view with mental health issues, where we kind of say, you know, “If you’ve had that sort of problem once, you know, that’s something that’s affecting you for life.”  And for a lot of people it doesn’t – or certainly not in the same way.

Neal:           Agreed.

Kathryn:       A really good point and actually bringing it – I mean I know you’ve taken it to football which, you know, Phil – you know my feeling on that but, you know, and you had to get it in the podcast didn’t you, but it was a really, really good connection, so I’ll let you off with it.

Phil:             Thanks!

Kathryn:       But, you know, just going back to something you were saying then Alan, it was the one about the repeating the question, whenever I hear that, I always go back to a time when I was doing an application with somebody and they did have a mental health condition and I don’t think, if I remember rightly, that there was any kind of suicidal thoughts or suicide attempts but there was something that I’d had to disclose and I’d had to ask them, you know, about, “Have you had any hospital admissions?”  And you know, I’d asked about the thoughts and the self-harm and the suicide attempts.  And then there was a disclosure of irritable bowel syndrome which then suddenly brought up all of those questions again and I had to go through it all again because for whatever reason at the time, the insurance – the insurer’s application system was basically like, “Oh, if somebody has IBS, we need to ask them all these mental health questions.”  I’d already completed it, you know, elsewhere and I was having to go through it and I just kept, every single one I was going, “I’m so sorry, but I have to ask this and I’m so sorry I’m having to ask again.”

And I think, you know, we need to sometimes have that – that kind of thing which I’m really – I’m loving at the moment obviously, I’m doing this work and this week is all part of working with the Institute and Faculty of Actuaries and in that, you know, there’s advisor, there’s actuary, there’s underwriter, there’s so many different people in there, so we can all sit there and go, “Do you know that this is happening here?” and they’re, “Oh, I didn’t realise that,” and then back to me as well, they’d be like, “Did you realise that this is happening?”  And I’d be like, “I had no idea that’s happening.”  And it’s this.  I think this interconnection of us all getting together is really, really important.  We are coming sort of like towards the end of the podcast, so I don’t know if any of you have any kind of last thoughts you would like to leave about sort of like the things that you have seen and the things that you are liking seeing and things that you would really hope to see change in the next couple of years.  So anything like that?

Phil:             I guess I’d echo your comments Kathryn that, you know, certainly my feeling is that the industry is coming together on a wide variety of topics, you know, and we’re starting to not see each other as kind of siloed enterprises, that you’ve got mortgage brokers over here and face to face advisors here and non-advisors and aggregators and, you know, all these different buckets.  That actually, what we’ve got is, you know, the fundamental issue with the industry is not getting enough customers in and the reason we don’t get enough customers in is because they don’t like what we’re offering or the way we’re offering it.  It’s as simple as that, because I don’t think anybody looks at life insurance or very few people I should say look at life insurance as a pointless product.  They recognise what it does, it’s a good product and yet not enough people are buying it and that can only be because something we’re putting in front of them isn’t working for them.  And I think a massive part of that is around the process.  And a massive part of that will be people’s attitudes towards it and fears about what they’re going into as Neal said, you know, “What are they going to ask me, how should I answer this?  You know, if I got a bit stressed out about missing my target at work last month, do I need to answer that stress question as a yes or actually can I leave that as no?”  You know, so all of those different things.

But, I’m very optimistic that yeah, like you Kathryn, we speak to insurers on a daily basis, you know, given our size, we have their ear and we do feed back on frustrations like the one you’ve noted, around “Look, your application’s really repetitive here,” when you go down this rabbit warren, you’re asking exactly the same questions as this other rabbit warren and they’re really reactive, you know, they do not want to have application forms that are obstructive and counter-productive so our sense definitely is that insurers in the main are wiling to work with us and they are listening.

Neal:           I think just one point I’d add and it’s a little bit on the fly, but I’m going to go with it.  So claims tax I think has been a valuable piece in the industry for a number of years now, but just something Phil said there around, you know, people who perhaps buying protection, they can get cover in place even if they have – whether it’s a mental or a physical health condition.  You know, can the industry start talking about – or case studying claims, where the customer told us about these conditions and we listened and we underwrit them and we offered them a policy at a fair and reasonable price and unfortunately they’ve had to claim on the policy but it has paid out.  Just to kind of evidence that look, don’t be nervous about over-disclosing if you like.  Certainly, don’t under-disclose because that’s probably going to cause more issues later.  But kind of give people confidence, because I think there’s this kind of fear that, I mean, “If I take out life insurance and if I mention this health condition, it’s not going to offer it me or it’s too expensive.”  So yeah, again I guess an ask to the industry really to think about when you’re doing claims stats or case studies keep doing what you’re doing but try and – can we find a way to showcase or tell an audience that just – even if people have health conditions, they can still get cover and it will still pay out.  That’s very important.

Alan:           Yeah, no, I completely agree with that Neal as well and I think, you know, we always say context is a really big thing when it comes to these, you know, so online systems can – and applications often ask for black and white information but actually when you can provide context to a condition and more information, it can really, really help to actually get a policy offered.  I think my final point then and it’s going back to something that both Neal and Phil said earlier, was referencing to signposting, because obviously, you both made comments about what you do with it and I thought it would just be interesting to know what we do, because obviously Neal, you refer to – signposting to an advisor when somebody needs help and obviously Phil, likewise through your company, you’ve got your own internal advice team as well.  Interestingly, we will actually signpost at times to other services as well and especially online journeys.  And we don’t necessarily do this for any sort of commercial benefit because it doesn’t happen as often but there are people who will approach us who don’t want to speak to somebody, who don’t want to have a conversation for, you know, for a number of reasons.  It could be a mental health condition, it could just be that, look, I know what I want, actually I’ve come to you but I actually really don’t want to speak to somebody.”

So there are also opportunities for advisors to also signpost as well into for example online journeys, where they are more suitable obviously also to other advisors, you know, who maybe have different products and services.  But for me it’s, you know, you said about not being siloed and not all being different entities and that’s absolutely right.  It’s about trying to help the customer, it’s about trying to find the best solution for them and if it doesn’t sit with us, it doesn’t matter as long as that client gets put somewhere and they’re not just, you know, they get sort of pointed in the right direction, rather than just being told, “We can’t offer you something and we can’t help you.”  I think that’s just to me is the most important thing.

Kathryn:       Absolutely.  And one last thing I probably just want to come to you on Alan, just because I know that you’ve been involved in this quite a bit and will be able to give the most information.  So I think one of the biggest issues that people have and it is something I experienced myself, is that when somebody is declined cover, is those potential, well obviously the decline letters and how they can be very blunt and just say, “You’re not allowed to have life insurance with us because you have a mental health condition,” which is really, you know, when you come down to the basic facts of it, we all know what that’s kind of saying and indicating to that person.  To be obviously unfairly, you know, well not unfairly, it’s unfair to the person but to be quite straightforward with it is, you know, it is saying to that person – the insurer’s saying, “We think you are at risk of attempting suicide.”  You know, and it’s just not said that bluntly in the letter but that is what that letter is saying.  There’s been a lot of work done on that, so can you just tell us very quickly about the work that is being done on trying to make sure that these letters aren’t like that going forward?

Alan:           Yeah, there’s two big pieces of work that’s happened.  So one was the ABI, which is the Association of British Insurers.  They did a big piece of work on mental health over the last couple of years and they released an agreement out – and multiple insurance companies signed up to this and part of that was looking at application questions and a big part of it was looking at, you know, these reasons why letters, I should call them reasons why – it’s almost like a demands and needs letter but, you know, almost these explanation letters why – why couldn’t we offer you insurance or why has your price gone up?  And a big part of that is about talking about it in an empathetic tone, you know, doing it in a manner that’s not so blunt and hopefully not triggering as well because obviously if you say to someone, “We don’t think, you know, we can’t insure you because of your number of, you know, suicide attempts,” for example, that can be quite hard-hitting to read so, you know, there should be empathy and there also should be signposting in there as well.  So, you know, if, you know, a signpost to a mental health service, to a doctor or something like that.

But then there’s also another piece of work done by the Access to Insurance Group, which is an explaining underwriting decisions document because obviously, we all like our big titles for things in this industry and that’s taking it a step further, because that’s not only looking at mental health conditions, it’s also looking at other conditions as well.  And for that same reason, it’s almost saying, “We,” you know, “We will explain a letter without stigma and in as, you know, empathetic tone as we can and giving you the right information to understand why we’ve come to that decision.”  Rather than just saying, “We’ve declined you due to you having cancer or you having had a heart attack.”  Because equally, even talking about another condition, can still be triggering for some people from a mental health perspective.  So it’s got to be done in that sort of way.  And then if somebody does want more information, encourage them to get more information, so ask the insurance company and say, “Actually, thank you for that, but can you give me a bit more back – can you tell me why, why did you come to that decision?” and it should hopefully give more people, you know, access to that.  And hopefully it’s a step in the right direction.

Kathryn:       Fingers crossed.  Well obviously, I really appreciate you all coming on and explaining how the advised, non-advised and comparisites way of doing things can really open up different options for people.  I think ultimately everything has to be what is going to be the best outcome for the client and I think it’s fair to say that it can’t just be about the end product, it also has to be the journey that someone gets to having these vital insurances. Tomorrow, we are back for day three with our Mental Health Awareness Week and I have Fraser Ballantine from Zurich and Lisa Balboa from Hanover Re with me, to get an actuary and underwriter’s view of the protection insurance market with mental health.  If you would like a reminder of the next episodes after this week as well, please do drop us a message on social media or visit the website, practical-protection.co.uk.  And also, if you are listening to this as part of your work, please go on the website and claim a CPD certificate as well and that’s available thanks to our sponsors, the Octomembers.  So thank you so much for joining me everybody.

Phil:             Thank you!

Neal:           Pleasure!  Nice to talk to you!