Kathryn Knowles (00:05):

Hi everybody. I have Connor Darcy with me from the Money and Mental Health Policy Institute. He’s the head of Research and policy there. Hi Connor.

Conor D’Arcy (00:13):

Hello.

Kathryn Knowles (00:14):

Hi there. Today we’re gonna be talking about the recent money and mental health report that Connor and his team have launched talking about some insurance is and isn’t supporting people living with mental health conditions. This is the Practical Protection Podcast. So Connor, I’ve had a look at the report, obviously I’ve been through it. It’s, it’s a good size report. There’s obviously clearly been a lot of research done in there and I think it’d be really good idea to talk about it. It’s called the Written Off Report. So I was like, why did the Money and Mental Health Policy Institute feel that now, right at this moment in time was a really good idea to do a deep dive into what’s happening in the insurance world and mental health.

Conor D’Arcy (00:59):

So we’re just, just to give you a bit of background on us, we’re a charity that focus focuses on breaking the link between mental health problems and financial difficulty. So we look across a range of different kind of sectors. We look at financial services, but we look at, you know, energy markets. We look at experiences in healthcare, a whole, whole range of things where those issues can really play out. And where that toxic cycle that we often see where someone’s mental health affects their finances and then their finances affect their mental health can just end up in this really unpleasant, um, position there. I think the reason why we wanted to focus on insurance now is that we had, um, heard from our research community, and I should say there are a group of about 5,000 people all with personal lived experience of mental health problems who really shape our work.

(01:44):

And insurance has been one that we’ve heard from them as a, as a concern over a few years. So we did a, a little bit of research on, um, just focusing on travel insurance a few years ago. Um, and we know that there’s been lots of progress in the sector. There’s been initiatives to, you know, get signposting improved and, uh, other elements. But we wanted to take a slightly broader look at insurance in general. I think with the, you know, the consumer duty on its way as well to get a sense of the landscape, um, how things stand today and where there might be some, some room for improvement because it is, it is such an important issue. And I, I think again around, you know, COVID has kind of put the issue of insurance on everyone’s agenda a bit more, at least within our research community. And the cost of living, you know, as, as another outgoing that people have, making sure that they’re really getting good value for money and that the product is working for them, I think was something that we wanted to, to understand a bit better at this moment.

Kathryn Knowles (02:36):

Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And as you say, like with Covid, it was all a really strange, it was strange for everybody in every kind of area, wasn’t it? But I know in the insurance world, obviously everything because insurance is about risk and there was suddenly this new really unknown risk. So, you know, for quite a while we actually found in the insurance world that things became really, really restricted. So, so not just for mental health, but lots are not served different health conditions and sometimes not even just health conditions just in general. There were certain policies that were quite pulled from the market, you know, there was, there was a lot and lot of stuff going on, but as you say, it kind of becomes a bit of a cycle, doesn’t it? You know, we’ve got a mental health condition, we’re wanting to apply for insurance and, and one of the things I’ve done in part of my work is I built like a, um, a mental health kind of mind map of touchpoints in terms of insurance.

(03:21):

So right from the very beginning of like, what’s the triggers for wanting insurance? And, and that could potentially be a mental health condition and someone’s wanting to find out what’s going on. Or it could just be anybody without a mental health condition is wanting to get insurance. But the thought of going to the insurance and having to go through those applications can start to exacerbate some of those symptoms and then going forward and forward. And I think with anything, it’s always a bit of an unknown and I’ll talk about my personal experience as we go forward, such as anybody who is listening. I have lived with a mental health condition for, for many, many years now and have been in the insurance industry for 13 years now. And so I do, I can see it from the advisor side, but also I’ve been that person as well who’s gone for the insurance and, and has had the, maybe the decisions we don’t like, well, let’s say maybe the, the decisions we definitely don’t like and, and how that can feel and things like that. So, so to start off with then, what were the key findings from the research? What really stood out to you guys?

Conor D’Arcy (04:15):

So we wanted to, I suppose, like you were saying, understand that journey and how people might encounter different challenges, how they’re feeling and get a, a broad sense of people’s, you know, understanding of insurance and, and feelings about it. So we did a few different bits. We did a mystery shopping exercise, just focusing on travel insurance, but to, to see how declaring different conditions could affect, you know, the, the quote that you were given, the exclusions that might be there and how often people were declined. But we also wanted to go, you know, not just focus on travel insurance and get people’s views and experiences from beyond that. So we’ve, um, yeah, again, as I said, we did a couple of surveys in a focus group with our research community members and we heard there about, um, you know, experiences with life insurance and with income protection and a whole other other range. Yes. So I think from that, um, just that travel insurance exercise, we found that there was some really massive jumps that people were offering encountering. It was obviously worse when people had, you know, we, we looked particularly at, uh, depression and bipolar and when people had more severe and ongoing symptoms, we saw some really large jumps up, up to about 27 times the, the, the price that others were quote,

Kathryn Knowles (05:27):

I saw that. That’s an incredible jump because, um, so obviously I come from the protection space, so a difference traveling show. So I work in life insurance, critical illness and income protection and generally you just wouldn’t get that 27 times, you know, it well, unfortunately, it would just be that at some point in the show I just say, well, we’re, we’re just not prepared to multiply it anymore. So like you’ve said, you’d see maybe decline. So in some ways the 27 times is, wow, that’s 27 times. But actually compared to what we can see sometimes it’s, they’re actually still prepared to offer, which I know that that does negate, you know, the, you, I think I, I hope I’m sort of saying that in the right way around in a sense it’s sort of like, it’s, it’s not a good thing, but it’s also kind of a, this, the opportunity’s still there, but obviously 27 times that’s a, that’s a phenomenal increase and that’s certainly gonna be something that’s gonna be difficult for people to, to afford or to, to even accept that that’s, that that’s the case.

Conor D’Arcy (06:17):

Yeah, I, and I think it’s a really, I get your point, it’s really interesting one because I think the major, we looked at 15 different providers, a kind of mix of big and small and specialists and I think the majority for that, um, in that instance when it was more severe, bipolar did just decline to, to offer. Yeah. Um, and yeah, I can see how for some people it’s better to have some option, even if it is massively more expensive, um, than for just to be declined. And I, it’s been interesting talking to people in the sector. It feels like avoiding declines is a really big aim for lots of people because I think, you know, everyone understands how upsetting that can be to feel like you’re just not, you’re not even worth the risk. Um, but I think still when you’re getting those massive increases, as you said, if you’re, we, you know, we heard from people whose the, the quote we were getting for their travel insurance was worth was, was higher than the entire cost of their holiday or at least their flights.

(07:06):

Yeah. So it makes that difficulty of being able to afford it to be able to kind of do the things that we all take for granted that insurance Yeah. Enables us to do without worrying just that much, you know, harder or impossible in some instances. And I think with the, with the exclusions, I think this is a really interesting one and gets into some of the, the broader points for across the sector. Yes. People often felt like there weren’t great bits of information provided that it wasn’t really clear when exactly things were, were not being, um, you know, covered and when people’s mental health wasn’t definitely covered. Um, yeah. That, um, I think in some instances we saw where even where the mental health problem was excluded from that mystery shopping exercise, that the price stayed the same and people wondered, was that a, was that fair if, yeah, you know, if you’re reckoning that this is the reason why I’m more higher risk, you’re still charging me the same, same price, but not giving me the cover for that, does that equate a good deal for me?

(08:04):

Yeah. Um, so there was yeah, a, a real mix there. And I think looking across the sector more broadly, we found people who I think had had, had negative experiences with one bit of the sector. And uh, I know as you were saying, there’s, there’s really big and important differences between travel insurance and, and life and, and other forms of protection. But people that we spoke to often didn’t make that distinction. It was, I’d had a bad experience with an insurer. That’s rocked my trust in the sector as a whole. I’ve had absolutely massively high quotes given to me. It’s just something that I’ve been written off from now and just leaves you in this really unpleasant position of feeling like you’re, you’re not gonna be able to, you know, take part in normal life and you can’t do the things that everyone assumes they can.

Kathryn Knowles (08:48):

Absolutely. And I was gonna say, I think, you know, that really, really stands out to me is, is just that thing of, you know, once you’ve it somewhere, it, it, it, it doesn’t matter in a sense. So, so you know, we’ve had it before where people have, you know, cause I, I tend to help people specifically with health conditions. I’ve not found it easy to get insurance. And it might be that I’ve done my research and everything and I’m saying to somebody, right, you should really go to this insurer because you know they are gonna be the best price for you. Um, but then they’ve been absolutely point blank, I won’t use them because they were really bad for me when I tried to do like a claim on my buildings and contents and you know, people, we don’t see that because we’re not, you know, obviously even as an insurance specialist at times, you know, we can be looking at other people in different kind of areas with an insurance and you just can be like, really does that over there, you know, and, and, and we don’t even know it.

(09:37):

So people outside insurance world, you know, it’s gonna be very, very hard for them. So, so I’ll just, I’ll explain a little bit about my experience if that would be helpful. Cause I, you know, obviously just, I think it’s always nice for people to hear sometimes that someone from the industry who’s just like, well, I do kind of get it a bit. So, um, so when I first try to get my insurance about 13 years ago now, I was declined by all but two insurers because of my mental health. Now at the time, this was around 2010, um, I had, um, been living with generalized anxiety disorder. I’d had a few years prior I’d had, um, a couple of bouts of acrophobia, um, but I’d not had anything. So in insurance price, the insurances that I look at, which would be, I said the life insurance, the critical of the income protection, the things that the insurers are really looking for is where the symptoms have been quite, um, quite significant.

(10:28):

And there’s maybe needs to be a support. So that would be something where, um, you know, somebody’s maybe needs to be an inpatient at hospital for a bit or possibly there’s been some actions to maybe to maybe hurt themselves at some point due to their mental health. And I didn’t have any of those things and, and I was just like, hang on, I’m just, I’m an anxious person, <laugh>, you know, and only two insurers on insure me and they’re increasing my premiums. And it felt really, it was awful because I like a lot of people who I’m showing your respondents, you know, to this thing. I got those letters saying we’re declining you for your mental health. It was really blunt, it was really hard. And at the same point, you’re kind of there as yourself going, actually I’m in a really good space with my mental health, but this organization, this big organization is telling me that I’m not.

(11:16):

And if you do get a decline duty in mental health, it’s, it’s depending upon the insurance, it’s a very clear message as to what they’re kind of saying is what they think might happen to you in the future. And that’s really, really difficult to, to process. And now I, I went for new insurances about seven years ago and everything was absolutely fine, completely normal terms, no issues whatsoever. Quite a few options and even more so now. So I think what, what I’d like to show people and, and I would certainly not say that anybody, you know, any, everybody’s experience is absolutely valid and what, you know, they have been through. But in terms of the insurances, it’s incredibly important to research the market because you know, you can get some insurers who might decline someone and someone else might do normal terms. When I say normal terms, that does mean that the basic premiums and no exclusions on the policies.

(12:07):

So just a little bit of a information hopefully for any listeners that could hopefully be helpful. So if you are going for something like personal life insurance with something like that, the majority of the time you are not going to see, um, an exclusion for mental health on life insurance. There is a caveat on a lot of insurers and this has got nothing to do with an individual, but there is a ca caveat on lot of insurers there as standard for anybody, they would put an initial suicide exclusion for the first 12 months. Now that is, that’s, that’s pretty standard across the board. Some don’t, but you know, so if someone does see that, you know, please don’t suddenly think, oh what have they done? You know, anything like that. It, it, it is standard and, and it’s, it’s not something personal to you in your background.

(12:47):

In terms of critical illness cover, again, we’re not generally going to see exclusions, but there has been some developments recently and some insurers now with critical, I have to say it’s an absolute minefield cause there’s lots and lots of different versions. But let’s just say that with most insurers there’s two versions, there’s like the core version and then there’s the SuperDuper version. And what we’re finding now in the SuperDuper version is that sum insurers are maybe able to cover things like psychosis on their critical illness claims. So if somebody went for the core cover, they might not have an exclusion, but if they went for the stupid duper version that has psychosis on there, they might actually see an exclusion for psychosis. And it’s, and it’s really hard because if they, if if they approach one way, there wouldn’t be the exclusion there. So there’s not then that, there’s not been that jarring kind of upset I think of, sorry, seeing an exclusion, but it is there.

(13:39):

Uh, but then obviously it’s very, very important for me to be very clear with income protection. And I imagine, cause I know this is one that you mentioned before, Connor as well is that with a lot of income protection policies, if you apply for them personally, so that’s something you pay for yourself, um, a lot of the time they will have exclusions for mental health conditions and that can feel quite intense. And a lot of the time as well, even with a mental health exclusion, you a lot of insurers won’t ensure people with certain mental health conditions, even if there is a mental health exclusion. And as you say, some insurers will do a discount because the mental health is no longer available on the policy claim set. Some of them don’t. So again, that’s why it’s so, so important to do lots and lots of research.

(14:20):

And then on the flip side of all of this, we have what’s known as group insurance and that is something that’s arranged by a limited company and you get a certain amount of what’s known as free medical underwriting. And I won’t go into this too much cause it’s incredibly jargon heavy and Connor, I really, really want to give you chance to, sorry, tell me even more about what’s coming from the report. But in terms of the group insurance through a limited company. So that’s where you are an employee of an organization and your employer arranges the insurances for you. You can often get those kinds of policies without any exclusions in relation to things like the mental health claims that sometimes be, I have to say there can sometimes be wording in them that we just need to be really careful of. But with that kind of policy, it is usually done.

(14:59):

Um, it’s usually has to be done through a broker. So you would have an advisor there giving some tips and everything. But also if you are in a position where you are accessing these insurances, maybe even doing something like a bit of salary sacrifice to be able to feed into them really, really essential, speak to your HR people, get the terms and conditions and just go through them. Make sure that there’s nothing in there kind of saying you must tell us if you’ve got X, Y, Z or anything like that. Cause the last thing you want to do is you’re paying for something where there’s maybe that potential that it might not be coughing. Cuz again, that’s a huge issue that people have at times is that they maybe pay fors, insurances and then suddenly it’s not gonna do what they’re expecting it to do.

(15:39):

And that’s clearly what we all want to avoid. So I hope that’s a little bit, just a little bit of a, a tidbit for people kind of just to give them a little bit of information. Unfortunately I can’t give any insight onto the travel and things like private medical insurance, building contents, anything like that. Cause it’s not the space that I operate in, but I’m sure, and I, I do know many people in that space who could give some, some really good insights into that. Um, what do you believe Connor is missing from the insurance world? Support people living with the mental health condition?

Conor D’Arcy (16:10):

I think there’s, there’s probably a few bits at, at different stages and you know, I think as, as you said, I think even within travel but across different sectors or within insurance, there’s a real range of practice and some firms are doing a, a really good job. We’ve heard lots of good examples of how people take the time to explain stuff, really clear carefully that there’s really good sign posting, that when decisions are made, there’s good, clear information on why that’s been made and, and you know, how it’s been reached. Um, I I think on your, on your point around research, I, I think that is is really when people are able to do that, that can just, you know, you can find the one that’s right for you and yeah, you can get a good deal. Something that we hear a lot from people with mental health problems is that when your symptoms are playing up, just, you know, day-to-day life becomes so hard and that, you know, it’s hard to get outta bed.

(16:56):

So the idea of having to go through different websites and put in all that information and often be asked quite tough questions about yes, you know, really some really difficult times in your life that, uh, or as you were saying, you, you feel like your symptoms are under control, it’s not affecting you, but you’re still being asked and feeling like you’re still being punished for health reasons that that just really can make going through that process, doing that research, just such a, a troll really. And, and of course, um, difficult. So I, I think, you know, trying to raise these issues across the, the industry as a, as a whole and get people aware and thinking about what some of those journeys look like and where the difficulties might be, I think is, is one big thing we want to see. I think there’s loads of points around the, I think the, the journey onwards around like, you know, with claims and we often hear from people with mental health problems that when, you know, in, in other worlds as well and like financial services more broadly, when something goes wrong, you, you always know that you can make a complaint, but there should be ways to fix it.

(17:54):

But if, if the only way to fix it is to ring up a specialist number and actually your anxiety means that being on the phone to a stranger is just an absolute nightmare for you and leaves you, you know, we’ve, we heard of people who were just shaking and completely unable to sit on hold cuz it’s just so yeah. Overwhelming for them. But if, you know, if you might as an insurer have a really good support team that you think can help people fantastically, but they’re, they’re only available through the phone, that’s can be just inaccessible for some people. So there’s this thinking about for people with a range of different conditions, how are they gonna get to the right support? Where is the information available? Is it available on lots of different channels? Are you giving the people chances to, you know, pause and come back again?

(18:37):

And, um, to, if you’re going, if your mental health is playing up. So many of the common symptoms that we hear about things like, you know, your, your memory isn’t as good, your concentration isn’t as good, that can just mean that filling out a very long form or having a long conversation would just be really tough. So giving people the opportunity to, to pause and come back to it, um, can, can be a really big one. So, um, we’ve got a best practice guide coming out on this shortly with load Oh brilliant. Details on what firms can do, but the report has quite a bit as well. So I think from, from firm’s point of view, that that’s what we’re really looking for. I think there’s a, there’s a slightly broader one to, to get at that issue of trust. So as we said, you know, some of those, some of those jumps we saw like up to 27 times were yes, were, you know, I think worrying is probably the, the best word for it.

(19:22):

We tried to look into what data was being used by that and obviously, you know, there’s commercial reasons and sensitivities and that data isn’t publicly available, but from what we could find from medical literature and, and other sorts of sources, it didn’t seem totally clear and when it’s being communicated to customers, they didn’t feel like they really knew where this was coming from. Yeah. And it was leading to that feeling of being discriminated against. So one of the, the calls that we’ve been making is for, um, you know, the F c A to, to do a bit more to really work with insurers to understand what data are they using and is it definitely, you know, relevant, is it up to date, is it, um, drawing the right conclusions? And you know, I think, I think if we found that firms maybe weren’t using the most up to date, you’d hope that the F c A would take action and suggest better sources that they might be an improvement in the sector overall.

(20:07):

But equally, you know, if it finds that the, the data’s being used fairly, that it is just sensible risk-based, um, approaches that you start to think, well, you know, what is the, what’s the offer then for people who are just being locked out from these products? And it’s, you know, not dissimilar I think from the, the, the flood reprogram where people who are just unable to get that cover, if there’s a need for government to step in, um, then that’s the, the next discussion. But I, I think that previous, um, step of like figuring out is the data definitely as good as it could be? Is it being used in a, in a fair and kind of consistent way are the questions being asked lining up nicely with that I think is one of our, our, our big initial calls I think to, to hopefully raise trust and to, to improve outcomes for, for consumers and mental health problems.

Kathryn Knowles (20:51):

I think, you know, there’s a couple of really, really good points there, like you’re saying in terms of the phone calls and things like that. So, you know, I do have people who I support who can’t use the phone due to social anxiety. So, you know, we maybe adapt to let them do email and things like that if they feel comfortable doing that. So, you know, I think with anything but it’s, I was thinking as well straight away a phone call if it is only available by phone call well you have people who are deaf who can’t use the phone Exactly. In, in the same kind of way. So, you know, this is, this is good’s practice for many, many situations and um, and there’s this thing that’s like came up for me just except just going back to the report as well and just something you said there because there’s a lot of confusion and, and I think there’s always this kind of, um, kind of wall in a sense that we get when it comes to things like the equality acts and you know, I do have people ask me about that who are, you know, clients will say, well, hang on a minute in terms of the equality act, they’re not meant to do this, but there is some exemption isn’t there for insurance.

(21:41):

But I think, you know, there’s always this query about where does that line get drawn? Isn’t there, there’s something there.

Conor D’Arcy (21:50):

Yeah. So insurers are allowed to, to discriminate based on, um, disability or health conditions, but it has to be the data that they’re using has to be relevant and reliable and up to date. Because if I, I think this is a a really, it could apply to any health condition, but I think it’s really important for mental health problems because there has just been so much change in how we think about it, how our analysis and understanding of it has changed and even treatments and what’s available. Um, and the level of people who are now, you know, a bit more comfortable talking about this and, and getting help and support has totally changed. So I would imagine if you’re using data from, you know, um, the, going back to the nineties say, that might give you a very different picture to, to who would self-identify as having a mental health problem today and what sorts, what sort of information is available for them. So I think if insurers can, you know, even internally look at are we really comfortable and confident that we are using good quality, accurate, up-to-date data, I think that would hopefully start the, again, the, the ball rolling on building a bit more confidence and that firms know that they are doing as good as they possibly can do and can think about how they communicate that to, to customers.

Kathryn Knowles (22:58):

Absolutely. I think that’s a really good idea. And just another little side thing that just pops into my head before I ask you our final question and uh, and uh, <laugh> we sort of come to towards the end of the podcast is, um, just to start make every aware as well, we’ve got, there are certain conditions in some parts of the world where there is something known as the right to forget and you know, after a certain period of time the there is, you know, people, there’s no duty on them to say about certain things when they go for insurances. So, and this is really, really relevant for mental health. So it might be that someone’s mental health condition is disclosed on the application, but it might be that certain things that have maybe been associated with that mental health condition are outside of timeframe. So you’ll get someone shows of says things like, have you ever had any of these events happen?

(23:39):

But then you might get some who say, have you had any of these things in the last 10 years? In the last five years? And you know, for myself, and I know you will know as well con as well, is that there was many, many conditions where people, until they get their diagnosis, until they get their treatments, there can be things, especially in the teenage years that, you know, with some insurers can really affect them well into their forties, fifties, you know, and it’s, and it’s not being them and who they are for decades. So again, when we’re coming down to that research side of things, and as you say, research isn’t always the easiest thing for everybody because you know, it does feel like a slog and you might think, oh, do I have to fill in all these details with every single I insurer until I find the right one?

(24:18):

And obviously there were many different ways for people to, to be able to try and and overcome some of those things. Um, and also as well, I think it’s important to know that, for people to know that with things like the insurances that I do is that you don’t have to always go down a route where you would talk about your mental health and your past. There are specialist policies now very, very clearly. They can come potentially with exclusions and you know, they must be spoken about very, very clearly to people. But again, like we was saying before, if it’s a choice of not having the insurance, potentially having the insurance, then sometimes if, if it is that case, if you just cannot speak about the past, there can sometimes be options. So please don’t feel if anybody’s listening in that situation, please don’t feel, um, maybe be anxious or think that, you know, you, you definitely can’t have anything.

(25:06):

There can be, you might talk about it with somebody and you might think actually that suits me. You might talk about it and you think, you know, actually no that doesn’t suit me and I just, I still don’t feel it’s right. But at least hopefully have that confidence to know that there are many routes to insurance and you know, there’s definitely lots of things we can do. So carna just to sort of like finalize the um, podcast then in terms of the questions, what would be sort of like your key calls to action? I know we’ve already spoken about some of them in a sense, but if you could just give like a couple of like bullet points in a sense to just say, right insurers or f c a or anybody please do this.

Conor D’Arcy (25:43):

Yeah, I think insurers, uh, have a look at your data, make sure you’re confident in it. Think is it fair, uh, fca, I think to have a look at what firms are doing, start talking a bit more about this, thinking about how this might tie into the consumer duty and responsibilities there. I I do think that for insurers more broadly, just that that journey and the, some of those things you were just mentioning, like timelines, do you need to ask questions about things that happened 8, 9, 10 years ago or would a more recent time period be fair? What does that journey look like from from you know, very first logging onto a website or picking up the phone right through to making a claim if you have a mental health problem, all the practical difficulties that can present. Is this a journey that will actually work for people or are you just making it unnecessarily hard? Is it unfair? Does it mean that they just aren’t gonna get the same, you know, level of kind of, you know, good service and a good outcome that any other consumer would expect to have. So I guess it’s um, getting the ball rolling on this conversation where I know there has been progress, lots has been done, but still feels from people who we’ve been speaking to that there is a long way to go before people with mental health problems feel totally confident in the insurance industry.

Kathryn Knowles (26:49):

Yeah, I think that’s some, some really good, good questions and some good, really good pointers to put out there. And you know, as you say, whether or not something comes back and says actually the data is up to date and things like that, then that’s, that’s that. But you know, great and fantastic. But also it’s just as you said that transparency, having that open dialogue so we can build that trust into the insurance world. Well thank you so much Connor for coming on and giving your insights and talking through the recent research. Next time I’m gonna be back with Roy and be talking with Charlotte Rogers, her passion for trust and the real life story that she shares, the absolutely hits home, why trust there are key part of providing insurance advice. If you’d like a reminder of the next episode, please drop me a message on social media or visit the website, practical hyphen protection dot code uk. And don’t forget if you’ve listened to this as part of your work, you can claim a CPD certificate on the website too. Thanks to our sponsors, the Octomembers. Thank you so much Connor.

Conor D’Arcy (27:41):

Bye, Kathryn.