Kathryn:

Hi everybody. It is season six, episode eight, and I have Matt Ram back with me. How are you doing, Matt?

Matt:

Good morning, Kathryn. Very, very well. Thank you. Um, following my, uh, my very wet holiday in, um, in one of the Canary Islands, about 10 minutes ago, I managed to, or Tresor and I managed to get away to Tenerife.

Kathryn:

Oh, lovely.

Matt:

Week before last. And rather than four days of solid rain, we actually had virtually the whole seven days of complete sunshine.

Kathryn:

Oh, lovely.

Matt:

24 to 28 degrees every day. Just to make, make everybody feel bad. I

Kathryn:

Was gonna say, making us feel jealous, Matt. Go on, go

Matt:

For it. Well, I, I, I’m afraid so. And then, and then we, we got off the plane in Manchester and it was about six degrees. Oh, <laugh>.

Kathryn:

That is the thing, isn’t it? That is the absolute epitome. If, you know, you’re coming home from a holiday, when you look in the uk it’s just like beautiful weather. You always come back to rain. There’s never a doubt is that it’s rain and for me, come on.

Matt:

No, no, you far away. Go on. I was gonna

Kathryn:

Say for me as well, the, the absolute thing of knowing that we’re on our way home is obviously cuz we live on the, on, on the East Coast is traveling back from Manchester to us, the east, that farm in the middle of the ware. Yes. Soon as you see that, it’s just like, I’m going home and I just always feel like farm. I’m just thinking, I just think good on you. Keep your home. Yes. Keep, keep your space <laugh>.

Matt:

Every time trees is, um, leads last and every time you go into your, um, uh, relatives, we, we pass out farmhouse and, uh, every time I must have done it a dozen, well, more than a dozen times. And I’m thinking, my god, an interesting chap. He must be. Yeah. Or she must be for that matter.

Kathryn:

Absolutely.

Matt:

Hey, ho. Hey ho

Kathryn:

<laugh>. Absolutely, absolutely <laugh>. Well, today we’re gonna be talking about value added benefits and how important they are while you have a protection insurance policy at the point and after point of claim two. So this is the Practical Protection Podcast.

Kathryn:

So to give everybody a bit of a summary before we start really going into things, when we’re talking about value added benefits, we’re talking about those extras that’s insurers offer as, as part of an insurance policy that are usually, you don’t have to pay extra for them. But it’s really important as an advisor that we don’t say that they’re a free benefit in the sense they’re not free. They are offered as part of the policy, but you know, ultimately there’s money going around somewhere to pay for these kinds of things. So we just need to be very, very careful of our, our wording. And another thing that I always do, and I think it is positive for advisors to put in their demands and needs reports that, um, things like this are available, that some advisors maybe even list the specific value added benefits that come with the, it just really makes sure that when you’re doing that, that you do say they are a non contractual benefit.

Kathryn:

That is a really, really key point of these things because ultimately the insurer can change who they have these services with. Um, they can potentially remove them, um, they could remove and replace some with different ones or they might just remove them entirely. We, we, we, we don’t know. We can never say that. So just make sure that you don’t put yourself in any a a tricky situation where you’ve said that this comes with this and then ultimately, let’s say it’s non contractual and it might change. So when we’re looking at value added benefits, we are talking about things like access to gps. So that is often things like, um, having remote access by, um, potentially telephone or video consultation with a UK gp. And they’re often available, um, all day, every day. Um, in the uk uh, there are things like second medical opinion services where if someone is diagnosed with something or they’re just feeling that they may be not getting access to support through their regular, probably the NHS route.

Kathryn:

Um, and that’s not a criticism of the nhs. That is just to say that as we all know, the resources of the NHS are incredibly stretched. Um, and it’s worthwhile. And I’ve got quite a good example of that, um, in a minute that I’ll go through. So that’s getting second medical opinion on, uh, whether or not you are getting the right treatment or diagnostics really are potentially, um, as well as diagnosis. The actual diagnosis itself, uh, we have things like nutrition experts, fitness experts that can potentially be mental health support and even things like annual health MLTs, which I, um, I think are an absolute incredible thing. Um, and I think was important to start off with episode, we’re gonna be bouncing backwards and fours between us quite a bit between me and Matt because we’re gonna have seen value added benefits from different angles.

Kathryn:

Obviously I see it from a consumer and from an advisor angle, Matt would’ve seen it, you know, potentially from consumer angle. I haven’t asked you yet, Matt, if you have, but potentially from a consumer angle, but also from, from within the insurers side, from within the underwriters side. And so we’ll be getting lots of different viewpoints of how they work. Um, but the thing I wanted to just quickly mention, um, when we talk about those second medical, medical opinion services, I’m sure probably quite a lot of people in an industry have seen. And if not, please go do check it out. Um, the story of Dave Marcus now that went out, um, live, I believe it was yesterday. And in terms of this podcast going out, it won’t be yesterday in terms of that timing. So it went live on the 26th of November and, and it went out in, this is Money.

Kathryn:

And that was all about Dave, who’s he works at Teladoc, he’s a commercial director there. And he’s very, very well of value added benefits because Teladoc is one of the providers potentially of some of the value added benefits that we might get. And in his story he says that, you know, he was feeling quite yuck. He had this really persistent cough. He was going to the gp, they kept saying it was a chest infection, giving him antibiotics saying that, you know, eventually it would pass. Um, he was having like the negative covid tests and everything like that. And he did use his second medical opinion services that he had with his insurance. And what was absolutely phenomenal and so important about this and that, his story is such a good example is that by using that he did get some additional tests and he was diagnosed with lung cancer.

Kathryn:

So then very quickly, um, I believe he’s had a critical illness policy. So we had all of that. Um, obviously financial support came in, but even more so the value added benefits in a sense, in some ways even far more beneficial than the money because it was the val value added benefits, that second medical opinion service that actually triggered everything that led to him having that diagnosis to be able to get the treatment. Um, and to be able to, to obviously be able to he be here and share his story. Apparently I could see on the, on the article that it said that about people who ha are diagnosed with lung cancer. I didn’t arrest so many people, Matt, were were diagnosed and, um, passed away with lung cancer. So every year apparently 35,000 people passed away in the uk, um, due to to lung cancer and only 40%, um, survive for longer than a year.

Kathryn:

So obviously Dave is doing incredible that he has, um, managed to, to survive that diagnosis and obviously getting such an early trigger and and access to support will have been a really key part of that. Um, so I think a good way for us to start would be to go through, Matt, if we start from the start, why, you know, in a sense from both of us, why do we see that insurers are offering these value added benefit? It’s not just about competition with each other, is it? Cause we always, there is that thing. Traditionally that critical illness cover has always been a bit of a competition of, you know, well we do 52 conditions. Yeah, well we do 54 now and it’s always been a little bit of one-upmanship in that kind of thing. But we’ve value already benefits. We’re talking about anything, we’re talking about even life insurance, which doesn’t necessarily have that same competitive aspect that maybe critical illness income protection can have, um, to the same level anyway. Um, so what are your thoughts then? Why, why are we offering these benefits?

Matt:

Yeah, I, I’ll, I’ll start with my thoughts to be honest with you Kathryn. Thank you for that. Can I just take a step back? I’m sorry. This is probably about, uh, yeah, every episode I think, uh, <laugh> I’ll do this for No, go for it. Apologize to everybody. Um, Dave, um, just an important point there for me in that article was that I believe Dave was a non-smoker.

Kathryn:

Yes. Yeah.

Matt:

And I think still even these days, even potentially with some conditions, dare I say that, um, I, I was thinking of of of, of Dave going on to his doctor and chest infections and chest infections, you know, being put put forward. But I would maybe the fact that he was a non-smoker, um, detracted or, or distracted to her, I should say uhhuh from the potential of, of, uh, of lung cancer. Because you know, certainly when I was growing up, I appreciate that was a, a long time ago now, but lung cancer was always linked with smoking.

Kathryn:

Yeah.

Matt:

And of course now certainly in your, the, your, uh, technical medical journals, um, the Lance bmj, things like that, you’ll find a lot of diagnosis being made from lifetime nonsmokers. So, you know, it, it’s, it’s, it’s always something to bear in mind and I think if you do start to get, um, longish term wise, um, chest issues, then you know, certainly get along to your GP or get a second opinion just, just like Dave did. Um, as I say, I think being a non-smoker can suddenly certain on occasions cloud where this may end up.

Kathryn:

Yeah, I can imagine that if there’s an analysis isn’t there, if, if a, if a doctor’s looking or nurse is looking and they’re going, well, hang on a minute, are you a smoker? There’s, it’s winter. Cause this was in the December that he’d not been, well I think it was, right. So, you know, from the winter months we’ve got covid, we’ve got chest infections. This person’s, as you said, non-smoker, the, there may be in terms of that almost a bit of a tick box system, it probably didn’t fall into the high flag area in a sense for, for cancer.

Matt:

Well, I certainly think, I mean my, my experiences of, I think it’s one 11,

Kathryn:

Excuse

Matt:

Me. Yes. Bit chest cough myself this morning slightly, excuse

Kathryn:

Me, will, you’ve got a second medical opinion. Go for it, Matt.

Matt:

Well, what can I say, <laugh>? Um, I’ll look in Braun’s book, don’t we? Okay. Um, sorry, where was I? Um, blah blah. Yes, the 1 1 11. Um, yes. That, that is a very, I dunno if you used it, Kathryn at all for anybody a friend or a, or a or a relative or, or even yourself maybe. But

Kathryn:

Yeah, I’ve used it for the children.

Matt:

It’s in Of course. Yeah. It’s incredibly prescriptive, isn’t it?

Kathryn:

It really is.

Matt:

You know, yes. It equals go to another box, go to another box, go to another box, that type of thing. Yeah. And I, and I do worry on, certainly on the times that I’ve used it for, um, uh, for a relative that, um, it, it, it’s very, it seems to be, uh, pretty hit and miss.

Kathryn:

Yes. Um,

Matt:

I have to say. But I mean, you know, I’m sure it serves its function as a triage for emergency calls. So, um, I’m sure it <inaudible> does some good, but I wouldn’t, I certainly personally think, think, um, people need to look beyond that and the questions they’re being asked sounds bit like for me, it’s a little bit like the computer says,

Kathryn:

Well, I was just thinking there was a computer system, wasn’t there. I, I’m assuming it’s maybe still available, but there used to be a thing where you could go on, couldn’t you? And it’s like, do you need to get medical support? And I remember, I think it was almost anything you put in, it was just like, you may be gonna say, I’ve had a, you know, I’ve got, um, a really bad headache or something, or there’d be something and it would just be immediately saying, well, we need to go to by knee. And it was almost every single, I couldn’t find think, obviously I didn’t do all the options, but it, it just seemed like any option that I looked at, it was just constantly saying, you need to go to a and e. And it was at the time it was like, well, no, I really don’t, you know, in a sense, and I know obviously I’m not a medical professional, but I can’t remember what it was, it was something quite minor in a sense that I’d gone on for and I just thought, I really don’t need to go to a and e.

Kathryn:

Um, and then that kind of made me think, oh, well, and to, so in a sense, doubt the system in a, in Yes. Some ways, which is absolutely, you tend to have one that seems to say, well no, there’s nothing wrong with you, just get on with it. And then another one that’s just like, no, get straight to hospital. And it’s, it’s, it’s very confusing.

Matt:

Ab abs. Absolutely. And I, and I think to an extent, why are we talking about this and is the point I was trying to make was actually talking to medical professionals, ac you know, for instance, access to a gp mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So access to a medical person of, uh, often virtually is my understanding. Yes. Um, is worth, its weighting gold. And, you know, you, you tend, you, you touched on the, uh, the NHS and the, the challenges that these guys are facing all over the place in national health service, doctors, nurses, social support, et cetera, then getting quick access to a medical professional, um, is, is absolutely, um, critical to my mind. Yeah. And I think really, um, I, I believe that added value services, as you’ve described them, have been available for a very long time. Um, but really over the last five years, probably less than that, certainly since Covid the, uh, the insurance industry has really looked at providing, um, extra help to their clients, um, and their policy holders, uh, to, to help them.

Matt:

If, if nothing else with the NHS functioning as it is, then urgent care or an urgent view, it’s often required. I mean, I won’t go into all the statistics around people on waiting lists. The one that really reminds me, I mean, cancer, having been a sufferer of cancer of course, um, is incredibly scary. But the, the one that really does scare me is, is the mental health backlogs. And yeah, they they are, they are, they are truly sad and very, very frightening. But you, you did ask me, um, are, are uh, insurers competing against each other? Then I don’t see that personally. I, I don’t see that. But it, it, it’s a part of the insurance industry or a lot of the insurance industry actually want to do something to help their clients. And a lot of what we’ve been talking about on the services that provide are, are provided preventative solution.

Matt:

Now, from insurance perspective, that’s fantastic for a, for a consumer, but also from insurer’s perspective, prevention is better than a cure. The old saying, it always comes out. And, you know, there is absolutely no doubt that, um, insurers will in some cases, um, benefit from not, uh, from, from the, the person not going as far medically that actually warrants a claim that there is no two ways about that. Now, is that a cynical thing I ask myself? No, I don’t think it is at all. No. Who on earth wants to have a heart attack? Who on earth wants to have cancer? Um, I can’t think anybody in their like right mind would want to go that far. So prevention is far, far better. And yes, obviously insurers will benefit from that. Now, an early diagnosis is obviously, um, uh, great, well, it’s not great, but it’s better than having a diagnosis of a, of a late stage cancer, an early stage cancer, let’s say it’s better than a late stage cancer.

Matt:

And if you’re talking life insurance, then, um, that’s likely to be a good move for the insurer. Um, but surely getting a, uh, an early diagnosis as opposed to a late diagnosis for things like cancer, um, has to be a good thing for the client. At the end of the day. There’s also hope. You, you certainly hope so. Yeah. And, and also, you know, we, if we look at the other side, so there’s a prevention solution which a lot of these benefits actually provide, but there’s also the kind of the tangible solutions, both physical and mental health as well. Mm. Um, and also financial, because if person is, can be prevented from getting a serious disease or get it tackled earlier, um, help with their mental health help, uh, financial difficulties often, uh, run alongside mental health issues, then, then that has to be a good thing for everybody.

Matt:

And one of the, one of the, um, benefits to an insurer, um, is very early, early days, but is, is actually the persistency of, uh, of the insurance policy and what in, in, in layman’s speak, that means that the, the person with the insurance policy can still keep on paying the premium to keep the policy alive. Yeah. Because those financial difficulties caused by being ill are very short or that haven’t happened at all because of the prevention nature. That’s very early doors. But I think you’ll find, um, a lot of, um, the more technical side of the insurer. So the act in particular, um, I do talk about that as a benefit to them, but I, I, you know, I, I a hundred percent believe in insurance. There’s no choice about it. I have benefited, benefited myself from critical illness insurance. My wife has benefited from critical insurance. Um, and anything that can keep the product on the books when, when money is tight has has to be a good thing. But overall prevention is better than cure.

Kathryn:

I completely agree.

Matt:

And this is what these products are all about. So there could be some cynicism out there rather the i insurers mode, but believe me, um, I can only see this, these benefits as something for the good of everybody.

Kathryn:

I think that’s obviously from majority and from people from I think internal to the industry. I think Ely and I, and I do think a lot of consumers do see that these are absolute benefits. And it’s interesting though, sometimes I think it can, sometimes that you say in terms of the cynicism, it can show just how much people view insurance when you can sometimes get the responses to them. Because I, you know, obviously I’ll tell people about value added benefits and explain it to ’em. And as I said, majority of people, that’s brilliant. Yes. You know, if I can have one, even if the insurance policies may be a bit more expensive, you know, to go with somebody who offers a lot more value added benefits than say someone who’s a little bit cheaper, quite a lot of the time people will go, well actually our girls do that. And I have to say from an advisor point of view, compliance point of view with the caveats that you have it in your reports to say, we’ve gone for this option, which is a bit more expensive because of these non contractual benefits, however, there was this cheaper option, but with the two you chose the one that had this one because they’ve got these benefits for now these may change in the future, da da da da da. I’m just gonna make sure I get that in there for all the compliance people that might listen, <laugh>, <laugh>.

Kathryn:

Um, but you do need to think of those things, especially as an advisor. It’s so important to think of those things. So last thing you want to do is get a complaint later down the line cuz you said that this was gonna be available and not be clear.

Matt:

I think that contractual piece is a very important part. So I I absolutely I have, I have known some of these benefits being pulled and the issues arising. Yeah. So I think it’s very important to flag it.

Kathryn:

Exactly. And it, I also think as well, it’s not good enough to turn around. I I, I don’t, I dunno if I’d say it’s not good enough, I would say that if you were in an argument as to whether or not it was good enough that there’s the, the insurer’s key features document or something else said that it’s non-con contractual and as an advisor you’ve then not written to highlight that. I think that that would be, you know, I, I would just think it’s better to write that it’s non contractual basically. That would be my point of view. <laugh>, um, let’s not get into any kind of vote trouble, but, um, just going back sometimes to consumers, I mean, I’ve had it before and it’s, and it just, it makes me really sad to be honest. And I’ll say to people, obviously you’re gonna have these benefits and things like that.

Kathryn:

Um, you know, you don’t pay extra for them. It’s all kind of all absorbed into the pricing and everything that’s there. And there are some people though that automatically, and I have had this said to me, basically go, oh, they’re just trying to think of anything, aren’t they not to pay out? Cuz you know, I, I’ve said to them, so the, the I point idea of this is that, you know, obviously you can get second medical opinion service if anything is to happen, you know, you can get diagnosed and get treat, you know, obviously you can probably trigger seeing somebody quicker. Um, absolutely, yeah. You know, and all this kind of stuff and seeing get an early diagnosis just like what Dave had and then that means, you know, that hopefully that if anything is happening that it won’t develop into something really serious or be caught super early and, um, and that you’ll be as well as possible.

Kathryn:

And some people still have that thing of going well, so they’re just, it’s just, yeah, it’s just another way for them not to pay. And it’s just like, are you trying to say something? But it’s a real win-win for everyone here. There is the ultimate, you know, the the, we can’t ignore that the insurers are having an essential financial win in some ways from it because if they can offer something that isn’t hundreds of thousands of pounds of payout that we would often see in a life in critical illness policy, and it would be, um, them stepping in with value added benefit, it helps a person now while they are alive, it helps them to stop developing something really quite unpleasant when, when we’re talking about critical illnesses, you know, we’re not, we’re not just talking about small diagnostics of these conditions. We’re talking about not really not nice either.

Kathryn:

Like potentially like as you say, like a cancer where it can be hopefully a temporary situation, but there’s gonna be pretty hefty and not pleasant treatment or we’re gonna be talking about something long term like Parkinson’s like my dad has, where it is gonna be a condition that’s gonna be, there’s gonna be deterioration over time in health. And if the insurers are doing that and helping that, I mean it’s just that kind of, it it’s that really difficult sometimes to get through that mindset of thinking, no, this isn’t the insurers just trying not to pay out. Yes, they get a financial win, but your win is that you are gonna avoid this really horrendous situation and hopefully avoid this really horrendous situation. Obviously as long as they engage with this in as long as, you know, things are happening and you know, hopefully it means that you’re not gonna develop a critical illness, oh, you’re not going to die, which means you’re gonna be with your family for, for much, much longer and much, much happier place. And, and I think that can be, that can be quite difficult I think as an advisor to come across. I say the majority of people aren’t like that, but there are times that we do come across that and I think the only thing we can do is just as always just try and continue to try and better the, the image of the insurance injury, uh, uh, sorry, industry. Um, it’s a very tricky one.

Matt:

Yeah. It’s, uh, I I suppose having been in the industry what, for 40 odd years now, it, it, it’s still, i I share your, um, sadness about why there is a, a probably still a significant, well a decent number of, uh, people who are so cynical by insurers. Um, but, but there we go. Um, these benefits really are superb. There’s no,

Kathryn:

No, no, I was gonna say as well, and I think that financial side of it as well where people think that the insurer might be winning out, and I, and obviously I have said, you know, that I sense there is a bit of a financial win cause the insurer is maybe not gonna pay out the, the big large, you know, some shirts, um, at times obviously they do pay them out plenty of times, but there might be times that that is avoided because it’s early intervention. But at the same point, these value added benefits are not exactly cheap either because they are, most of them are available immediately from when you start a policy. And that would be for the policy holder for the immediate family as well. Yeah. Yeah. And, and ultimately if the insurer is paying out for this remote GP and let’s say with somebody they’ve taken out a life insurance policy and it’s costing them eight pound a month and they’ve had it maybe two months, so they’ve paid 16 pounds in the insurer, but yet they’re already speaking to remote gps.

Kathryn:

The insurer at that point is obviously not making up, you know, there’s, they’re in kind of like a negative balance <laugh> compared to, to what’s going on in terms of the premiums coming in. So, so it’s not a case of this is all happening and the insurers are doing some sort of like backdoor magic or whatever to try and, you know, like keep all the money or anything like that. This is something that is, it’s one, it does cost them quite a bit of money. Um, there are obviously benefits to, to having them in place as well in terms of claims, um, for, for a number of different reasons in terms of claims, uh, whether or not that is supporting somebody through a claim or as you said, early intervention and then a claim may or may not happen. But there’s also as well that thing of, and, and I show that a lot of people, well not a lot of people, I hope not many people, but I do think there’s quite a few people who don’t think insurers are doing things for, for the goodness of their heart in a sense or for their moral great.

Kathryn:

This is yeah. But this really is, it’s taking pressure away from the n h s, it’s, it’s helping people to access things super early in a sense. His show don’t have to do this, but they are, you know, it’s, it’s not a mandate to them that they have to do this kind of thing. So it’s, it is a really, really positive social thing that insurers are doing by offering these,

Matt:

I can’t agree more, Arthur. It’s extremely well said Kathryn. Um, if, if I just go back, you know, the, the, I have talked about kind of preventing claims or therefore preventing claims payouts, but Dave’s example, again, going back to Dave Yeah, that actually the, the, the intervention if you want actually meant, resulted in a claim being paid, did it not? Yes,

Kathryn:

Yes it did. Exactly.

Matt:

So there you could, you know, that’s, that’s, that’s the other side of that coin and not necessarily around, it’s not around preventing, uh, sorry, not paying out more claims. It’s helping people so that they don’t get into a situation where they, they have to make a claim.

Kathryn:

Exactly.

Matt:

And, and you know, we’ve talked about the critical illness there, but income protection as well gets people back to work. These things will help people either not be off work in the first place or get people back to work a lot quicker. Yes. Um, and that surely has to be a social good. Yes. It, it, it’s, would, would save the insurer’s money in terms of the actual claim payout, but it has to be a social good. There’s, there’s no two ways about it. Absolutely. Yeah. So I, I can’t really say anymore apart from I I, I agree. Um, they certainly, I don’t have the, uh, financial numbers around how much, uh, these things cost. And I, I did say right at the very beginning of, of my part of our, uh, of, of our chat that these, uh, benefits, additional value services, um, have really exploded I suppose in terms of insurers offering them over the last few years. And I suppose the, the, the mathematical side of me would say, yes, they are costing the insurers money. Can they say hand on heart that it will save the money at the end of the day? Now my, my take would be that they don’t know yet.

Kathryn:

Yeah,

Matt:

It’s early doors and um, but it’s the right thing to do.

Kathryn:

It is, it’s up to the right thing to do. And I think, you know, when you’re just saying then about getting back to work and stuff like that, so to just to sort of break that down for potentially advisors or consumers who are listening. So if you, if you were to think of like an income protection policy and something happens and you need, um, and you need to have some physio, well it could well be this with your policy with the value added benefits that you’re actually able to see a physio incredibly quickly, you know, it could even be within a, within a week. Um, I think there’s times as well where it can even be either the same day on a couple of days depending upon where you are location wise and obviously Yeah, depending upon availability of people. Um, now, and so with that, it might well be that your income protection policy says, right, we’ll give you financial support after four weeks if you are, um, if you aren’t unable to work due to ill health.

Kathryn:

So, so when it comes to those value added benefits, it, it then becomes a thing of, well, do you want to get the physio quickly, get back to work really quickly so you, but you’re back to work before that four weeks even is over. Sone show doesn’t kick in that financial support or, you know, it might be that you do wait for more than four weeks to get that, but then especially for that first four weeks alone, you’d have probably been on statutory sick pay maybe, uh, which is less than a hundred pound a week. Um, so financially, you know, for, for the person as well as well as having that physio getting better sooner. And I think the majority of people would want to get better as soon as possible. Um, and then getting back into work, yes, it means that you might not claim on the policy because you might be back to work before the four weeks of it, but it also means that you are hopefully back to work sooner.

Kathryn:

So that financial loss in that first four weeks potentially isn’t as great. So there are, there are very specific times where these kinds of things are are fantastic. I mean, I’ve got some examples as well of when I’ve used the value added benefits and I have some positives and I have some bits where like towards the end where I’m gonna say things I feel like could maybe, maybe need a bit of reworking or maybe need to be a bit stronger. Um, so in terms of the remote GP access, I mean that was fantastic. So the story that I have is that, um, we went to Malta, um, we had our three children with us and we noticed, and one of my, my eldest child has had eczema, um, childhood eczema majority of his life at the time, or what was he, he was about eight I think.

Kathryn:

Yeah, maybe about eight. Um, and um, I don’t think he was eight anyway. Um, and so he is, you know, he’d had the horrible, horrific red bumps and, and his elbows on the backs of his knees. You know, we’d had to have steroid ointment quite a bit. We’d done all the things that he could possibly ask for and need, um, in terms of eczema and it had been years and, you know, I’d even gone to, to other things, you know, in terms of other medications that, um, lotions at times that had proven to be really good and, you know, just whatever we could do. And he would, you know, he would scratch it, you know, red ro bleeding point and stuff like that. It was awful. And um, and I kept saying to Alan over and over again, I was just like, I just don’t think it’s eczema.

Kathryn:

I know they’re saying it’s eczema, but I do not think it’s eczema. Um, because we’re doing everything. This just, you know, and this isn’t right, this nothing seems to add up as to sort of the standard things as to when it should flare up or things like that. And we were on holiday and my children tan incredibly well. Um, I used to when I was younger, I’m very jealous now that I don’t. Um, but they, they got a beautiful, beautiful brown color, like a really olive skin tone. And I noticed with my eldest, um, that on his back and on those patches of his elbows, his skin had gone pure white and it looked as if somebody had taken a rubber and just randomly on different parts of his skin are just erased the tan. And it was really strange. And so obviously I’m in Malta, dunno what’s going on with him, his skin’s going, you know, po you know, patchy things, obviously I’m really worried.

Kathryn:

Um, and so I went onto the app for my remote gp. I was on there at, I think it was maybe somewhere between three and five o’clock one day. And the next day at 11 in the morning I had a video consultation with a GP in the uk, which was brilliant. I was able to, to speak about my concerns, obviously as everyone can probably appreciate with me, I’ve done my research as to what I thought it was. Um, I’m that person by the way, <laugh> and so <laugh>. Um, so I’d done all this and I spoke to the GP and everything and um, and we obviously we, I went through it, we were there, I’d obviously a few minutes before the appointment I’d been in a bikini and you know, we quickly got like some, some t-shirts on because you know, still you can’t go to a GP appointment in your bikini and stuff like that. And we could turn the video onto my son’s skin, we could explain it and everything. And I was immediately as well able to explain my concerns. And it actually, Matt is um, it’s pity rices vertical that he has.

Matt:

Say that one again, sorry.

Kathryn:

I know pity RSIs s

Matt:

Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah. And

Kathryn:

So basically it’s a common fungal skin infection and you need to have antifungal cream and as soon as we used it on him, all the bits that we’ve been told are eczema immediately disappeared.

Matt:

Oh, fantastic. I’m so

Kathryn:

Glad glad for him. Yeah, well he used to, I know well he, well he’s, he scream, scream like mad would put the creams on him and like if I tried to put like after sun on him or anything, he would just scream saying everything was sting him all the time. I mean, granted, I have to say, I know, I know children who’ve had eczema far worse than here. So I know that even with his treatment, it wasn’t like to a point of really intervention’s sake, but it was just for me, as soon as I, I did some research about all this stuff and I was just like, right. And I spoke to the gp, I said it and they were like, they’re like, well it, it could be, I don’t, you know, we dunno, we can’t see him, but it might be we, we can sort out the trying to get some antifungal stuff when you get back and, and we did and it completely cleared it up, which, but that was just fantastic.

Kathryn:

I was able, and I’ve used this plenty of times in terms of speaking to a GP during lockdown. We have it, yeah, we have group insurance for our, our company and for our team. So they all had access to this kind of thing and it was brilliant. A lot of the teams do have children, but even if you don’t have children, it was just such a comfort to be able to speak to someone and to be able to, to really know that you had access to people. Um, it was an incredible, um, resource to have. Um, I’ve also had like one of the annual he health MLTs done, so, um, with one of my insurances I get like my um, my cholesterol and uh, my what other things, the other things in my bloods, all that kind of stuff gets test tested and um, so that’s always really positive to, to have that done and just make sure that everything is doing what it’s meant to be doing. Um, and the fact as well that we can access these things for our kids. So, so yeah,

Matt:

It’s so, so important.

Kathryn:

It is. We’ve had quite a few things with our kids where we’ve just going, no, what, we’re just not comfy. What’s going on? Let’s speak to someone.

Matt:

Yeah. Yeah. And it’s, it’s, isn’t it amazing how quickly all, all with, um, your eldest, how quickly that diagnosis or potential diagnosis could be made and a solution provided?

Kathryn:

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think with Alan at one point as well, so I’m sure he was going down to London and obviously we’re in the north and he was going down to London for something and he’d contacted, because I’ve forgotten what it’s called. He had some kind of an infection around his nail bed on one of his fingers and I can’t remember, there’s a really specific name for it and I can’t remember the name for it. It’s a unusual name, <laugh>. Um, but he had it and he’d contacted them basically on route to London and um, and when he got there, they’d been able to send a prescription to one of the local pharmacies for him to just go pick up. I mean, that’s just fantastic, isn’t it, that you can just do that, you know, where near you on gp, you know, where near your local pharmacy and you’ve just called up and they’re just like, yeah, that’s absolutely fine.

Kathryn:

You’ve sent us a picture, we know what it is. Here’s an antibiotic cream kind of thing. Um, just absolutely brilliant and I think that’s the one that really stands out for me is the, and obviously the second medical opinions, especially when you take things like Dave’s situation into it. And, and I know that there are so many examples, uh, with places like Teladoc and, and others where that second medical opinion service has proved incredibly vital, um, to someone’s life and, and potentially to their treatments as well. Um, going forward, um, in terms of, I know we’ve spoken about like a lot of this that we’re saying, and obviously we have spoken a little bit about the Dave, um, Dave’s situation, and I hope he’s okay if I was talking about it. It’s just, it came up, obviously it’s come up so, so aptly for our timing for doing an episode on the value added benefits that, um, I’ll, I’ll, um, it, it was just, it, it was brilliant to, to be able to do that. I’ll reach out to him and have a, a chat to him and just say that we’re gonna be talking about him quite a bit. Um, but in terms of obviously, so I’ve spoken about it from like an advisor point of view. I know you’ve spoken about it as well from an underwriting, an insurer point of view, but in terms of an actual claim or post claim situation, where do you see those value added benefits really standing out as being helpful?

Matt:

Well, I think it, anything where in terms of the rehabilitation for the, for the living benefits, um, has to be a very positive thing for the, uh, the, the claimant. Um, with physiotherapy, um, the, in terms of a post claim, things like physiotherapy, things like cardiac rehabilitation, stroke, rehabil, rehabilitation, uh, all have to be very, very positive benefits, um, without any, without any shadow of a doubt to, to the claimant. We have said that, um, in terms of, uh, the insurance company, you exp you, you met a very good example, uh, somebody who can get back to work a little bit earlier than maybe they could. I also say with the, with, um, with musculoskeletal problems, which as you know, a big, big, uh, part reason for claims with, uh, things like protection, the sooner you can get treatment with a physiotherapist, the far better the prognosis.

Matt:

Yes. Because once, once you start to stiffen up and your muscles start to, to you be used in a different way cause they’re supporting another group of muscles, it takes a lot of time to get those muscles, uh, working the right way. Um, and I know that for a fact, um, I I left a injury, a rugby injury for the best part of 25 years, can you believe, oh, before I got it sorted out, I actually dislocated the shoulder and it went, popped back in. Right? Um, but when, um, when I eventually got to see a consultant and all the new scanning techniques they’ve got, they said, oh yes, well look, you’ve lost half, uh, well, a third of the cartilage oh that holds, holds your, uh, arm into the socket. Um, and you, and you, you effectively, your arm is slipping down outta its socket. But it took the best part of 18 months to get, uh, of physio physiotherapy twice a week in order to get that shoulder working again. And, um, it’s a bit of an extreme example, but the sooner you can get that treatment started and working the be the better it is and these types of services can at least get you on the right track. Yeah, there’s, there’s, there’s, there’s no two ways about it. So just answer the question, Kathryn, or have I gone off on a tangent yet again?

Kathryn:

No, no, no, no. Abso no, it’s absolutely answers it. Thank you. I’m, I’m, I’m the one that you should just tangents, don’t worry. <laugh>,

Matt:

<laugh>

Kathryn:

And I, I think, um, a good thing, um, for us to maybe think of as well, um, and I, I don’t think I can think of anything necessarily, but do we think that there’s anything missing from value added benefits at the moment? So we’ve got GP access, we’ve got mental health support, nutrition fitness, we’ve got seconded opinion. Do we, do we think that we’re covering all the bases?

Matt:

No, that’s, it’s a, that’s a very difficult question to answer. I was, I was, um, reading, uh, upon the subject of, uh, adding value, uh, prior to our chat and um, I did see an article quoted that said that the, the lady who’s writing it, uh, a good friend of mine actually who’s now retired, sadly, um, had had calculated that there were 60 to 70 different types of service provider giving, uh, vast amounts of different types of benefit. So I think with that extensive coverage then, then that will probably cover the most things. Mm-hmm. I think that what we need to be aware of here in Kathryn, I think, you know, your, I think your knowledge is, is will probably be better than mine, but we are, we, there’s, there’s no substitute here for pmi. We’re not trying to, to, to, um, substitute these benefits for private medical insurance. That’s a different beast altogether. Absolutely.

Kathryn:

Um,

Matt:

What it does for me in a very simplistic way is that it, it, it really, really speeds up the triage of getting people, patients who first walk through the door who have, have a complaint, a medical complaint, um, get them to the right place and the right people very, very quickly, as opposed to having to wait potentially months to even their first follow up appointment.

Kathryn:

Yeah.

Matt:

This is, I think really where, uh, for the consumer, this, this really does work. Um, as I say, it’s not a replacement plan, stretch imagination for private medical insurance, the comprehensive med private medical insurance, but it really does speed things up. And let’s be honest with the nhs, it, it, it, it, it takes all, it, it saves the NHS so much time

Kathryn:

Yeah.

Matt:

That, um, it, it, it really is a social benefit. So I, so I’ll answer your question then, Katherine, I, I can’t really put my hand on my heart and say I, I don’t know. I, I can put my and say there is something ultimately missing, but maybe just to reiterate it, this is, is this is not a private medical insurance plan.

Kathryn:

Absolutely. And I think that comes down to, you know, if we so explain how it would work in some ways, if you had a private medical insurance plan, you would usually speak to your gp, get a GP referral, and then you would contact your private medical insurer who would then, you know, obviously double check that they can cover that type of a, a claim on the policy and then step in and getting you access to professionals. So, so in terms of the value added benefits, you would, you know, you potentially see a remote GP who might then trigger that conversation to sort of go, right, well maybe themselves or maybe write to your GP and say, look, we’ve spoken to this person, we think that they need a referral to this situation. So this, you know, uh, medical support, um, at which point from there again, that would then you could then use those referral letters to then speak to your private medical insurer if you do have that.

Kathryn:

So, so you say in terms of second medical opinion services, you know, absolutely excellent, incredibly good. If you don’t have p m i, amazing things to have, if you have private medical insurance, then that’s probably gonna have fulfilled some of, you know, obviously, well, hopefully a good portion of that, sort of like second, well, getting an, a quick set of eyes on it, you could still use your second medical opinion service just to double check that you think the private medical insurance is doing it all right. But all of these things are about getting you to the right people as quickly as possible so they’re all complimentary. Um, and, and I think that’s really important to, to be aware of. As you say, Matt, it, it’s certainly not a replacement for getting private medical insurance. Um, I, I could be wrong. I don’t feel, I don’t believe that private metal insurance necessarily gives you access to remote GPS regularly. I could be wrong. Maybe it does

Matt:

Not as far as I’m aware, but I’m not, I’m not a pre expert, but

Kathryn:

No, neither am I,

Matt:

I think the, um, it’s important thing for me is there with even with um, um, I

Kathryn:

Think you can do, you know, I’m pretty sure I’m one of my, it is terrible, isn’t it? Because obviously I’m in, well this shows how much it, it differs between different departments and insurance. I’m sure I have a private me

Matt:

Change lot, Kathryn, to be honest with you, I think, I think things in advance at such a rapid pace, it’s so difficult.

Kathryn:

I have private medical insurance and I’m pretty sure that I can access a GP remotely with my private insurance. I’m pretty sure I can, I may well have made that up. So <laugh>, trust me in these episodes, trust me on protection insurance. Um, don’t necessarily trust me on the things like what’s available with a p i, stuff like that. But I’m sure I do. I’m sure I do.

Matt:

Okay. I mean, again, I I would really just say this about the, around the speech. I think there’s something with a topic like mental health. Yes. Um, a GP is not necessarily gonna have the time to actually get you to the right person.

Kathryn:

Yes.

Matt:

Uh, at the Right, well, sorry, let’s say say the right type of yes. Of, of doctor or the right type of service immediately where a second opinion may help clarify that situation.

Kathryn:

Absolutely. I think that’s a really good, um, point in terms of like the second medical opinion services on things like that,

Matt:

Particularly on mental health. I, I would say that really, that really could work very, very well.

Kathryn:

Yes, absolutely. Cause that was actually as well on the mental health side. So I think when we’re talking about there, we’re talking about the second medical opinion on mental health, not the specific mental health support route that’s offered with these value added benefits. So, so this would be the one thing that I would say, um, that for me stands out as is obviously it’s brilliant to have mental health support with these insurance, with these value order benefits. Um, the ma the key thing for me though that I always, um, try and, and put forward and, and hopefully people can, can hear and and obviously, um, maybe make some changes at times, is that, you know, when we see stuff like mental health support, it is usually like mental health support, we’re here to help you and a number, um, it, there needs to be clarity on that because people and consumers don’t understand, well anybody, they don’t understand well what mental health support can you and can you not support?

Kathryn:

So, you know, if somebody is feeling like they might potentially harm themselves or harm someone else, those mental health support lines aren’t necessarily designed. But, but for people in that situation, if you, if someone feels that they might have, um, a personality disorder of some sort, again, those situations, th those mental health support lines aren’t generally designed to help people in that way. And I think, and the key reason I, I sort like try to call for like some really clear clarity very early on so people know what to do is that when you have mental health, you get pushed around from pillar to post all the time. Yeah. You’ll see a gp, you’ll see a mental health nurse, you maybe see a cognitive behavior therapist, you might see a psychologist. A lot of the time it’s, it’s unlikely to get to see a psychologist, um, psychiatrist unless quite a severe, not severe, quite a strong action has been taken, um, in terms of a mental health situation.

Kathryn:

Um, you know, potentially, you know, somebody might have been, um, sectioned in hospital, you know, they might have needed to stay in the hospital for a bit for, due to some symptoms that they’re experiencing. And it takes an incredibly long time. I’ve been, um, obviously I’ve had mental health and I’ve obviously, I’ve seen a gp, I have seen a psychologist, um, I have because my autism’s seen a psychiatrist I didn’t seen for mental health, but some of the autism. But I have seen and been very close to people who’ve tried to get support, not through the insurer’s value to benefits mental health support. So, but general in the N H S side, it, that area is incredibly under-resourced and it’s in very, very hard to get to see anybody. Um, and there again are tick boxes at times that basically say, unless this has happened or this has happened, then you’re not, you don’t get to go to the next level of person that can offer you support.

Kathryn:

Yeah. And and the reason that I’m, I’m sorry, saying all that is that if someone has gone through that, if they have spent years trying to bounce around from here to there to everywhere to try and get support and, and that’s not the assumption of saying, well, this is somebody who wouldn’t get insurance because if their mental health is that strong, they would, you know, that can just be people who just generally need support. It doesn’t mean that there’s been anything that would stop them from getting insurance for them to then see something somewhere else that says, oh, they can offer me mental health support here. And they go to it, they get on the phone, they again, yet again recount their emotions, their experiences, everything like that. And some at the end goes, sorry, we’re not able to help you. It’s a bit too much for what we can do.

Kathryn:

I’m not saying they’d say it in that wording. I’m sure they’d have much better wording to let people down gently. That’s not okay. So for me, a bit of a call on the action on this in terms of the mental health side of things is just to make sure that when we are promoting stuff like that, that there is, and I did think I have seen, I think some insurers make this change where there is a clear kind of thing, say mental health support, these are the kind of situations that we can help with and to sort of, I know it can’t list everything. Um, but there’s also, it’s important not to give false hope to people and you know, to give them yet another area where they may be knocked back. And ultimately that’s then just gonna give them a negative feeling towards the insurer. Um, which is something that we obviously we always want to try and avoid.

Matt:

Yeah, well said. Well said. Thank you. We did, we did identify something then. Yeah,

Kathryn:

We did. We did. No, I was gonna say that wasn’t something that’s missing necessarily. I mean, there are, you know, it is, there, it is very valuable. It’s just making sure that, you know, a lot of the people who would reach out for mental health support significant portion are people who have mental health conditions and we just need to make sure that, um, you know, sorry, that they already know that they have them. That’s what I mean in terms of diagnosis and things like that. Yeah. But we could also be speaking to people who are very, very early on and, and certainly I’m not advocating for people without training to take these calls on and to try and help this person or, or anything like that. You know, you would need to have specific people there. Um, and there are some, you know, obviously there certainly some organizations that can do that. It’s just making sure that we’re very open and clear from the start. I’m also almost thinking a bit of a consumer duty aspect to it there, Matt. Yeah,

Matt:

I say that. That’s a very good point. Yeah. Consumer duty. Yeah. Yeah.

Kathryn:

Okay. Um, so we’re at the end. Do you have anything else that you want to share, Matt, about value ads?

Matt:

No, I don’t think so. Apart from to say, um, I I I think it’s a, a great development for the protection industry Yeah. To, um, to, to really throw an awful lot of effort and money, let’s be fair. Um, but these benefits and, uh, you know, I believe they’re, they’re genuinely there to help the, the policy holder, the life assured. And, but also, and you quite rightly said, and I just highlighted it again, the family, the children, yeah. Um, uh, as well. And, um, it’s in my dosage. It’s a great thing to see.

Kathryn:

Yeah, no, absolutely. I, I absolutely adore value to benefits. And as, as I said, you know, even if it’s a little bit, obviously anybody who’s listening advisor wise always go by what your compliance person says. Um, but even if it’s a little bit more expensive to go for an insurer who has a lot more on offer, you know, I would give that person an option and I would you know, I would always make SHS from an advice point of view. We always have to make sure we’re doing it from the most cost effective way possible for the person. Which you know, is, is absolutely right, but there’s also nothing wrong to say, look, this is ave you know, you can have this and da, da da da da and it’s this price. But also, just so you know, but, and again though, from an advice point of view, you would then need to figure out how much extra a month you feel is okay for paying towards something like that.

Matt:

Yeah,

Kathryn:

It was, yeah, you know, if it’s 30 pound of mal dear with the insurer per month, you know, it’s idea with the insurer who offers lots and lots of value already benefits, that’s quite a steep amount. I mean, people might turn around and say, well, 30 pounds, you know, to have access to a GP on demand and you know that, you know, some people might want to pay that and yes, they might do. Um, but ultimately, again, going back to that thing of it is non-con contractual. So you can’t guarantee it’ll be there forever. Um, so there’s lots of things to think about and as if an advice point of view, go by what your compliance officer says is okay for you to do. So. Thank you everybody for listening and thank you as always, Matt, for your insights. Uh, next time I’m gonna be back with Alan Knowles and it’s gonna be our final episode, um, before Christmas. So the last one of this season and of 2022. And we’re gonna be doing a masterclass on providing critical illness cover advice. If you’d like a reminder of the next episode, please drop me a message on social media or visit the website, practical Hype and Protection dot code uk. And don’t forget that if you’ve listened to this as part of your work, you can claim a CPD certificate on the website too. Thanks to us sponsor the Optum members. Thank you again, Matt. See you soon.

Matt:

My pleasure. Speak soon. Bye.