Kathryn (00:00:04):
Hi everybody. We are on season five, episode 11, and I have Matt Rann back with me. Hi Matt.

Matt (00:00:11):
Good morning to you. You’re keeping well,

Kathryn (00:00:13):
I’m very well, thank you. How are you?

Matt (00:00:15):
Yeah, yeah, this, this same rude health. I hope never, never could be too short when you get to my age, but you know, as far as I feel okay, thank you for asking.

Kathryn (00:00:26):
Good. I was going to say, well, the sun is shining. Um, it’s cold. Um, but, um, I’ve got, I’ve got some annual leave coming, so I’m very, very excited about that. So

Matt (00:00:36):
Thank you so much for sharing. Yeah,

Kathryn (00:00:38):
Absolutely. So today is quite a personal episode with, uh, with me and Matt. And, um, I’ll take you all through it a bit more, but just so you all know very sorry from the beginning. Um, today we’re talking about why I am declined by all insurers for personal income protection insurance. This is the Practical Protection Podcast.

Kathryn (00:01:02):
So to start things off, I’m not shy about sharing my health conditions. I think most people know at least two of them that I, uh, I publicly share and I share them to try and challenge people’s mindsets of what, um, these conditions are. Um, whether or not that’s someone who’s a consumer, maybe some medical profess advisors, hopefully, maybe some underwriters at times, maybe. Um, but, um, this isn’t, you know, an episode one specifically calling for like any specific changes or anything just maybe to, to hopefully spark some ideas. And, um, what I’m going to do is I’m just going to quickly tell everybody my health conditions and a little bit about them and how they impact me. And then I’m going to hand over to Matt this little bit, but I do want to give like a little bit of disclaimer first about what Matt is doing and what he’s saying, because I have told Matt to just be brutally honest with me and he’s not brutal in any way whatsoever.

Kathryn (00:01:57):
So he is going to obviously approach it in a, in a lovely way, but I just want to be very clear, um, in, in terms of like just giving a statement to people. Because I wouldn’t want anybody to think that, uh, Matts being like particularly harsh or, or anything like that, but let’s start off then with my health conditions. So main ones then for me to talk about a hypermobility syndrome, generalised anxiety disorder, underactive thyroid, postural tachycardia syndrome (PoTS) and autism. And I’ve listed them in the order that I was diagnosed with actually, cause then it kind of helps me to, uh, to think of the timeframes and everything. So in terms of height, mobility syndrome, I do not have Ehlers-Danlos syndrome just in case anybody wonders that I was diagnosed at age 12. So that is 24 years ago. Um, after having numerous and well fractures and sprains and people not understanding what’s going on, not understanding things like it, it could sound really deaf, but as an example, like sports days at school, I was doing the exact same actions as everyone else, but not going anywhere.

Kathryn (00:02:56):
You know, I can’t run it’s, you know, it’s, it’s very difficult for me to do that. I have tried a bit as an adult and I, I did do okay with it, but I’m still it’s, it’s not really the best of things for me, but in terms of hyper mobility scoring, I am full nine out of nine on what is known as the Baton score, which is, um, the analysis of nine specific joints to see if the hyper mobile I have had my heart scans and different tests done to make sure that there was nothing going on in terms of my internal organs. Um, luckily touch words than not nothing was at all. And in terms of problems with the hyper mobility syndrome, I, I think a fortunate thing from being diagnosed from such a young age is that I’ve been able to adapt my life very specific around it.

Kathryn (00:03:40):
Now people might wonder, well, well, what does that mean? And yes, we can maybe understand why that would have an issue for income protection cause you’re having to adapt your life. But my main adaptations for my hypermobility syndrome is that I’m not going bungee jumping. I’m not jumping out of airplanes. I’m not going ice skating. Um, like I said, I did try running for a little bit and then I thought, you know what? This is just too much of risk long term for my well short term for like my ankles. Um, if I fall off, I’ll just my ankle, but um, long term, my hips, my knees, you know, it’s, that’s not good for someone who’s a runner without hyper mobility syndrome, less having that. So I decided obviously to stop doing that, um, I don’t seem, I like a massive runner or anything. I literally did it for about a year while so something and it was yeah, just, just small 5s. It wasn’t anything excessive, um,

Matt (00:04:25):
Small 5s. I don’t know. Yeah. You, I was going to

Kathryn (00:04:29):
Say, well, when you’ve got Alan who does triathlons for me, it was like, you know, it was stop, start 5s as well. I have to say, you know, but,

Matt (00:04:36):
Well, it sounds good,

Kathryn (00:04:38):
But you know, in terms of, I, I do stuff like Zumba do Pilates summer, obviously I’m very bendy. So dancing is something I, I am very good at. I still have to be careful though. There’s certain MOS I won’t do because I know it puts my ankles at higher risk. Um, I do Pilates, which is actually really, really good for me. That one, those is, is, is tricky, but obviously I can’t do yoga. Um, cause you’re not, you are not meant to really, to do yoga. If you are high a more BI, it doesn’t, it, it makes the muscles even more loose, which isn’t the, isn’t the goal in the long scheme of things, but in terms of any other adaptations I do. Um, so I have things like wrist supports that go on my desk to just cushion my wrists against the wood of the desk. I, I have this very random rubber device, which sounds strange, but I put that on top of jam jars and things like that. And it helps me just get a bit more grip on things like that.

Matt (00:05:29):
It’s a good idea. It’s,

Kathryn (00:05:30):
It’s really, really helpful. I have to say even a, sometimes they’re brilliant. I’m trying to think of what it looks like. I will try and think of something at the moment that there’s something I can think it looks like, but I don’t think that’s really appropriate to share. So I won’t do that.

Matt (00:05:43):
Remind bottles, I think.

Kathryn (00:05:44):
Yeah. I’ll tell you after. Um, and um, and you know, I make sure that if I have a pen, I use the right kind of pen, you know, it’s got a specific, like little, um, maybe more cushioned towards the end of it, rather than one that isn’t so nothing extreme. You know, I understand my body very, very well and I haven’t had touch word any significant injuries since my mid-teens. And, you know, obviously that’s a, a really, really positive thing. Um, in terms of the, and obviously matters as we go along, you can, if there’s anything I’ve missed or things you want to ask me about

Matt (00:06:15):
If I may. Yeah. Because, um, you know, I I’m, I’m feeling off what you’re saying and if we, if we went through the, the, the list that we have, then I might, may forget some points. So it would be good. Maybe if I could comment. Yeah. Um, after, after each section, if you want.

Kathryn (00:06:31):
Yeah. Do you want to comment now on the ability then?

Matt (00:06:32):
Yeah. If I, if I could. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Let, let’s just go back to up fundamentals here and people listening, um, will, excuse me. I hope. Yeah. Um, just to repeat the, uh, the blinking obvious if I can use the term that in, we’re talking about income protection today, and that’s a policy that is designed to pay out if somebody is unable to work through accident or sickness. So is really the, the inability to work through. We’ll talk, we’ll talk sickness today as opposed to accident. I think it’s more pertinent conversation, um, is, is what an underwriter or any risk manager for that matter will, will be looking at. And they’ll be looking at the, um, obviously the medical history is key, but all, so occupation, yes. Is very key. Cause most policies are the inability to follow your own occupation that differs particularly with things like total and permanent disability, but that’s not what, what we’re talking about today.

Matt (00:07:32):
Yeah. So if we look at hyper mobility syndrome, um, my, my questions really would be, this is, I think I’m going to approach the whole conversation around the way I would disclose or, or give some ideas about how to disclose to the insurer. Yeah. So that’s not just the, the end client, the customer, but that’s also to why I, or people who are selling policies, um, full stop, really. So I’ve got hyper mobility syndrome. Some of the questions that some of the issues that would be raised in an underwriter’s mind would be the, for a start. It would be the app, the, the actual diagnosis of hyper mobility syndrome. You’ve, you’ve already commented on the, the score, which, um, you’ve got nine out of nine, a key area here would be for the underwriter to take, uh, EDS, the no syndrome. Yeah. Out of the equation altogether, because as you, as you probably I’m sure, you know, Catherine, that the hypermobile H yes. EDS, um, is generally a pretty, is a progressive disorder. Yeah. And, um, it can, it can be pretty nasty to say the least for the, for the person suffering from that. So a question I would throw is how, how do you know that you don’t have EDS?

Kathryn (00:09:02):
That’s a really tricky one. And that’s something that I think would be,

Matt (00:09:05):
That’s the, that’s the challenge for the underwriter. You see, that’s why, that’s why I ask it.

Kathryn (00:09:09):
Because I, in terms of like a, is in a, in another way to say, like, you know, we, we speak to a lot of people who’ve been told they have, you know, because I always say, if anybody comes to me for any insurance and I’m just taking away from this bit from income protection here. But, um, if they say to me that they have hyper mobility syndrome, the first thing that I say, and my team are trained to say is, have you ever been told Ehlers-Danlos syndrome because of how it changes, what the, the vision is obviously going forward?

Matt (00:09:36):
Absolutely.

Kathryn (00:09:37):
Yeah. Now the difficulty that I think sometimes presents itself and I don’t know the exact obviously details, but as far as I’m aware, Ehlers-Danlos syndrome itself is done through some form of a genetic test

Matt (00:09:52):
Or it can be.

Matt (00:09:54):
Yeah.

Kathryn (00:09:54):
Now I, as far as I’m aware as again, I, we seem to see a lot of people who have been told that they have hyper mobile EDS purely from going and seeing their GP and them seeing that they, and showing that their joints are hyper mobile. And it seemed to become a thing for a while where there a lot of people we speak to and we just like, well, have you had any extra checks? And they’re like, no, I just went and saw my GP. I was told that obviously I’ve got these hyper mobile joints, which means I have hyper mobile EDS. And that in itself is quite, I’ve always found is quite a concern.

Matt (00:10:33):
I think it’s frightening is, is the absolute bottom line because how people, people, um, would see their future from health perspective, um, you know, you, you get on to Google or something similar or the society, the EDS society. Yeah. And, um, you know, it can be, could be to a lot of people pretty damaging to their mental health to be perfectly honest with you.

Kathryn (00:10:55):
Absolutely. Well, in terms of me, I don’t have stretchy skin. Yep. So people with EDS, so, um, you know, they, they tend to have a skin that is obviously very, very stretchy. Obviously I have had my heart checked, so there is nothing in terms of my heart, in what it looks like. Obviously I’m, I’m being careful my words, like, cause I do the postal tachycardic syndrome. So I’m just going to say what it looks like. Yeah, yeah. In terms of the EDS. So the reason that, so, okay. So the reason that I would know personally is that when I was first diagnosed, um, I was fortunate to be covered with my parents’ private medical insurance. And so I did see someone locally, but then what they also did is they, um, I was sent to the two professors of hyper mobility syndrome, um, in the country. So that was, um, professor Rodney Graham in London and, uh, professor bird leads. I can’t remember his first name and they were the two former specialists in the condition and I saw both of them and they confirmed it. So for me, I feel pretty confident that I have hyper-mobility syndrome and not EDS.

Matt (00:11:58):
Great. And I think, I think to, um, those, uh, IFAs out there it’s, it’s important to try and extract that type of information if you can, from the client for very obvious reasons. Yeah. I think that, again, an underwriter could look at it, look at this as well and say, this is for income protection. I had. Yeah. Um, the, the, the, the challenges that you had quite nasty, um, situations that you had when you were a, a certainly a teenager. Yeah. Um, you know, hypermobility syndrome, Catherine you’ll know this anyway, but it generally affects children or young people and it’ll get better as you get older. Yeah. And reading, uh, well, bear mind the conversations that we had have not had really any symptoms requiring medical treatment for a very long time. Would that be right?

Kathryn (00:12:51):
That is right. I do still get, uh, I’ll be truthful. Obviously. I do still get discomfort and I do still sometimes get pain, but I don’t have, you know, the permanent back pain. No. That I used to have,

Matt (00:13:01):
Have any pain killers for that from memory?

Kathryn (00:13:04):
Uh, well, I did used to have some very nice pain killers when I was younger. So, um, my mom has a, a wonderful, um, memory of me having some very, very high dosages and her coming in and massaging my back when I was in bed when I was singing, if I was the king of the forest, one was a duos at the

Matt (00:13:17):
Top. This is when you were young though.

Kathryn (00:13:18):
I, this is when I was young. Yes. Very, very young. Um, but no, um, no, the only pain killers that I’ve had are just these standard pain killers and that’s more sort of if there’s been headaches.

Matt (00:13:28):
Yeah. Okay. Well, in which case really, you know, um, not to take anything away from the condition. Uh, but I think that sounds fairly standard life, life treatment to me. Yeah. If that’s, without some, you know, taking away from the hyper mobility itself, so, okay. So, so effectively from, I’m looking at this from a risk perspective, we have a diagnosis, we have a very firm diagnosis of hypermobility solely definitely not EDS or H EDS. Yeah. Um, you haven’t had any issues that are worth noting from an underwriter perspective for a very long time. Um, I think you, you are open about your medical history. I think you have said recently on a podcast cast between me and the, that you are 36. So I shocking podcast bear in mind that, you know, it looked very well for 36 in mother of three children and a, and a, and a top business person. I have to say you, which

Kathryn (00:14:31):
You

Matt (00:14:31):
So, and you haven’t had problems for, let’s say any issues for at least 18 years, give or take

Kathryn (00:14:38):
Yes, roughly. Yeah.

Matt (00:14:40):
Right from, so from a, an income protection perspective, you, you, you have hypermobility syndrome. Um, would I be concerned about that? Am I concerned that it will stop you doing your job now, as people will no doubt know our listeners, I mean here, um, that deferred periods. So that’s the, that’s the period of time when, um, uh, an insurer, uh, will not pay your claim and you, you look after yourself effectively. Um, and although there are immediate payment benefits out there in the market, the more traditional insurers, if I may not little the, the dear friendly societies here, but we offer, look at, look at deferred four weeks. So in other words, new, you look after yourself for four weeks, then the insurer starts paying your claim after four weeks, then you generally have deferred 13 weeks. So that deferred payment, by the way, yeah. Uh, 26 weeks or, or even 52, when I was better allowed, there was 104 as well, but some not sure if they, they still exist. So again, looking at this risk, I’ll be looking at it and saying, right. Okay. And for the sake of argument, let’s say we’re looking at deferred 13 weeks. Yeah. So just over three months, um, is hypermobility given Kathryn’s occupation, which is primarily sedentary. Is that right?

Kathryn (00:16:12):
Thanks.

Matt (00:16:13):
No, no, I know, I know I’m been shocked for that.

Kathryn (00:16:19):
Uh, no, I am. Yes. I do have a, I do have a standing desk, but I I’ll be honest and say, I have not used it as much as I should do, but yes. Um, my, my occupation, I am sat at a desk

Matt (00:16:29):
And, and, um, and, uh, you you’d be a hundred percent, um, you don’t do any manual work. Sorry, but I’m trying

Kathryn (00:16:37):
Manual work. All

Matt (00:16:38):
Righty. So given that, and we’re looking at a period of, of, um, D 13, just over three months, I would’ve said from a risk perspective and taking it on the condition on its own. Um, I would’ve said that was not a didn’t present a risk.

Kathryn (00:16:54):
Yeah.

Matt (00:16:54):
Okay. I think, as I say, that is with the insights that Kathryn has given me. Yeah. Um, and no doubt. I mean, Catherine does this a it’s her own body we are talking about here and her own health, but B she knows what she’s doing from a medical perspective, particularly noting the all and cure’s, uh, name in the marketplace. But, uh, so I’m getting fantastic. Disclosure is really what I’m trying to say for me to enable me to look at the risk present that’s presented. Um, it, those homes of disclosures are pretty important to say the least, otherwise you’re going to get underwriters saying, oh, don’t know about this. Um, I don’t know. I haven’t got the information there for suddenly decline.

Kathryn (00:17:42):
Yeah. I was going to say, it’s, it’s interesting as well, because, you know, I think what’s, um, you know, part of this podcast as well is, you know, I’m, I’m going to be obviously giving you my medical information, your kind of assess me as an underwriter from, from your knowledge and from what you would do and how you would see it, Matt. And then I think what’s quite important is that I share what we see in the market

Matt (00:18:02):
Hundred percent, hundred percent.

Kathryn (00:18:03):
And, um, so generally in the market, the majority of insurers, if there is a hyper mobility syndrome, disclosure, they will decline income protection. Um, there are some, um, that might consider if someone has hyper mobile joints, but not hypermobility syndrome. And that is tricky. I think one of the biggest things that we should say as well here at this point in the podcast, um, cause it probably nicely follow onto the mental health and me speaking that one next is the two key claimable areas for income protection that the highest claims are from like back pain, muscle known as mu skeletal conditions and mental health. So if you have one of those conditions already, that’s obviously something the, it is more cautious about because they’re saying, well, actually this is our, in all likelihood, this is the, the, one of the highest areas that you’re going to claim on and you already have this.

Kathryn (00:18:58):
Um, so I think that’s probably why we, we have that situation. Um, but you know, there are some things that I think would be quite interesting to sort chat about as, as we go along with that math, um, in terms of, especially to talk about like the mental health and sometimes what can happen with the policies, um, and what can be offered, especially for people down the, down the mental health route. But it is interesting, I think, you know, especially to hear what you say, you know, in terms of like for me and, and my situation, why, you know, I, I, I very much doubt that I would ignoring all my other health conditions if we just took the hypermobility syndrome. I very much doubt because of our experiences, what we see on the market that I would get income protection. And it’s just as say, because we, we generally just tend to see if it’s hyper mobile joints.

Kathryn (00:19:47):
It can be a possibility. I think there was someone that we were able to, because they, they had height mobility, but purely in their knees. So that had a knee exclusion. So I think that’s important to be clear as well, is that, you know, if you do have it and you get the cover, this is all to do with personal income protection as well. So this isn’t talking about, you know, potentially income companies are provided through employers, um, but the personal income protection space, you know, you would be getting exclusions related to, you know, potential joints if you were able to get in.

Matt (00:20:27):
Yeah. I, I think I, I, the proof is in the pudding and I think that’s important to say Kathryn in new you’ve, you know, you, you have the proof of the insurer’s reactions to it. I think if it was me, I would be saying, why are you declining? Um, and, uh, sometimes rather than insurers, um, who put pressure on their underwriters to shift cases from their death, let’s be honest about it. Um, that will cause them to really think about the risk that they’re looking at, um, and potentially change their minds on some case is that’s not necessarily for everybody, but on some cases, now my experience will tell me that the case that you mentioned, whether they’ve excluded the knees, what, what are the, are they, what, again, I don’t know, the background to the case to be perfect. Honest.

Kathryn (00:21:21):
No, of course.

Matt (00:21:22):
Um, but that smacks off, they think that the knees could be dislocated and cause a problem that way, or they would get arthritis in the knees. Yeah. Um, would be my take on that. Um, now if that individual hasn’t had any problems since they were children, I would say that’s a pretty, I would say that was a tough decision personally, but, um, you know, every everyone’s their own. And the important thing is, is, is that insurers quite rightly have their own, uh, underwriting philosophies. Yeah. And, um, also risk parameters. And what I mean by that is that they, some people will, some insurers will look at the more, uh, difficult risks, um, from a, uh, an income protection point or mortality viewpoint for that matter. Yeah. Um, some won’t because it’s their risk appetite with and the way ultimately, they, they price in other words, when they set their premiums. So, um, I’ve never, I’ve never been one for saying, oh, you’ve declined that, and I’ve got just 75 or, or, or one and a half times the rate or whatever from somebody else, because I’m always, um, I always know that it very much depends on their risk appetite, which is set by their premium levels. So, yeah.

Matt (00:22:40):
However, okay. So that’s my particular view on that particular, um, hypermobility syndrome.

Kathryn (00:22:47):
Yes, absolutely. So let’s have a chat then about the generalised anxiety disorder. So age 20 I started having panic attacks. I had, um, two bats of agoraphobia within, so the first time was around the age of 20. The second time was around the age of 23. I believe I’m trying to think of the years and everything is how I was at different times. Uh, yeah. So obviously, um, a good long time ago in terms of my, um, anxiety disorder, it’s one of those questions that I always find really hard, you know, when people say, so, you know, when was the last time you had symptoms? You know, it’s, it’s very hard with somebody who has anxiety or depression or another mental health condition to say that because there’s also normal anxiety. I always use the example of saying like, when I’m trying to get three kids out the door in time for school and does not be late, that my, I get a bit heightened as does everyone else around me, you know, and a does Alan wouldn’t cast that as him feeling, being like having an anxiety disorder, I request that as, you know, as me feeling a bit anxious, but then it’s like also, what do I say?

Kathryn (00:23:49):
Do I say that that was my last symptom? OFX anxiety. Yeah. Anyway, I’m going a little bit off tangent with that, but that’s, um, something that is very difficult to answer. Um, maybe food for thought

Matt (00:23:58):
Sometimes just interrupt very quickly there. I think the, the key and I would be focusing on the word as an underwriter, but it’s the disorder. Yeah. So it’s an, they’re looking at for an abnormal, whatever that means or have to say reaction to a given situation. Yes. The children’s school, I would say it’s completely getting anxious about that’s completely normal, but it’s so difficult to say, what is an abnormal reaction and what isn’t, it

Kathryn (00:24:24):
Is

Matt (00:24:25):
Different people.

Kathryn (00:24:25):
Yeah. It’s, that’s the thing it’s so subjective.

Matt (00:24:28):
It is so subjective.

Kathryn (00:24:29):
And then as well for people, you know, especially if they’re going see medical professionals like GPS, you don’t know what’s being written down, you know, it could be, you know, there could start like say there could write down all, um, she felt a bit anxious the day. Cause you know, the kids were just, the kids were on one and she was, you know, felt a bit anxious, um, or it could just be, oh, um, she had anxiety the other day and then there’s no context to it. So there can then be a bit of worry as to, well, is this going to be seen as a nondisclosure? Um, so it is really, really hard, but for me, um, things, my main areas of issues, um, are times where I feel that I’m not in control, which obviously I imagine some people will, in some ways maybe I a giggle out because I am someone who’s very much someone who likes control.

Kathryn (00:25:13):
Um, and it’s just my personality type more than anything, but essentially it really presents itself when I’m going into things like public transport. Um, so on a train or maybe going on a plane or something, a situation where I feel like I can’t easily get out of it. That’s when it really presents itself. It’s, it’s very tricky now as well. For me when I’m, I’m saying things because I’m trying to say, well, it would maybe be this or that, but actually now that I know, and then talk later on, because I’ve been diagnosed with autism, I know that some of my reactions aren’t my mental health, it’s actually my autistic traits. So in terms of, as I say, those main areas are things where I’ll say, well, my mental health means that I, I really struggle to go on a train or an airplane actually.

Kathryn (00:26:02):
It’s actually my autism and sensory overload, but it’s now because my autism has not been diagnosed for so long. It has become a mental health as well. Well, not become a mental health condition, autism isn’t, but it’s mental health condition has developed because my triggers are sensory awareness. Wasn’t um, I’m trying to think of the best word for it. Um, it wasn’t looked after let’s put it that way. Yeah. So it’s kind of like a bit of an entwined thing, this one, but we’re going to and take them all as they are. So, so basically let’s look at it as in, in some ways let’s assume I don’t have autism math, so this is just purely mental health based. So mental health based, I don’t like planes. I don’t like trends and I don’t like traveling on my own. So as an example, you know, and this is something I’ve spoken to some people about, not everybody.

Kathryn (00:26:48):
Um, but I may as well just tell everyone I, everyone, everything really. Um, I don’t like traveling to London, obviously I’m in the north. I don’t like trying to, I don’t find it an enjoyable experience. It’s about five and a half hours, whether or not we do it by train or car. I definitely would not do that on my own. It is something I just would not enjoy in the slightest. I obviously I would feel very much alone and I would, I’d probably feel unsafe and there’s a number of, you know, again, I, I will share most things, but not everything. There are a number of traumatic events that happened in my life. That mean I don’t necessarily feel safe, going long distances without somebody that I feel safe with at the same point though, I know a lot of people who are absolutely fine traveling and doing everything, but I know that there’s also a lot of people who don’t like traveling on the world.

Kathryn (00:27:37):
So it’s kind of like, but it is my mental health, but for some people they wouldn’t cross its mental health. They would just cross it as well. I just don’t like doing that. But for me, I think in, in all intence and purposes matter, let’s assume that I’m somebody, obviously I’ve lived with generalised anxiety disorder for 16 years. Um, I had a couple of outs of phobia the last time, obviously quite a long time. Well, both times a long time ago. Now I am on a mild antidepressant. I’m on 20 milligram of prim. I’ve been on that for quite a long time. The what else? I think that’s probably about it. Oh yeah. And obviously that I don’t like traveling, um, on my own. There we go. That’s probably it.

Matt (00:28:15):
Okay. The, um, I think to paint a picture here again, I, I, I would, um, just reiterate, but not at the length I have previously with ability. Um, we are the underwriter, who’ll be looking at this in the context of the anxiety disorder, stopping you, doing your job for, to use the example, um, three and a bit months or more. Yeah. Okay. So that’s what we’re looking at here. I think it’s important just, just to remembering what you said historically, but am right in, in that, um, you’ve historically had some cognitive behavior therapy and counseling, you mentioned PPRI. Yes, but you’ve never, never seen a psychiatrist community mental health team or, or ever been inpatient. Is that right?

Kathryn (00:29:05):
Right. I will guide down my list of questions that I ask people. And so I can be very clear. Um, so yes, um, I have had cognitive behavior therapy and I’ve had hypnotherapy as well. I did see a psychologist, um, when I was close to first being diagnosed, I have to say that was one of the worst experiences that I’ve ever had. I have seen a psychiatrist, but not for this. Obviously I’ve seen it for my autism diagnosis. So I’ve never seen a psychiatrist for my mental health. I’ve never been an inpatient, never self harmed, never attempted suicide, not had suicidal thoughts. I’m trying to think of any of the other ones that you were just mention. Yeah, no community mental health teams, nothing like that. It has just purely been me GP, some medication, the hypnotherapy I did privately, uh, cognitive behavior therapy. I think I did private. Yeah, I did that privately. I so saw psychologists and the, I privately saw a psychologist because, um, unfortunately for me, um, the one that I’d seen through the NHS wasn’t a positive experience, but the one that I saw privately was, was very positive.

Matt (00:30:11):
Excellent. When did you last see a psychologist?

Kathryn (00:30:13):
Oh God. Um,

Matt (00:30:15):
I would guess from what we’ve said, we talked about historically somewhere between

Kathryn (00:30:19):
To be about, it must

Matt (00:30:20):
2000 to 2008. So 15 years ago give or take,

Kathryn (00:30:24):
It would be 10 years ago actually because, oh, sorry. No, no. 10 years ago. Um, no, it’d be more than 10 years ago. It would be, oh, beginning of two, beginning around the beginning of 2011, because, um, that was when I became pregnant with my first child and whilst I was thrilled, I was also terrified. So around that time, so up until so some, so probably, yeah, I’d probably say 10 and a half years ago because it was around that time that I was having the hypnotherapy and also saw the, um, saw the psychologist just to make sure that I was, it was just, it was just talking therapy basically. Yeah.

Matt (00:31:00):
I mean, that’s a life event though, isn’t it,

Kathryn (00:31:02):
It was a big life event and it felt, you know, with everything that I’ve got going on, I, it was very much a case of like, I’m not good enough to, to do this, you know, kind of thing. I’m not going to be strong enough. And, um, and there was lots going on at that time. I was just finishing, just finished my, um, just finished my PhD as well.

Matt (00:31:19):
Gracious. I don’t know.

Kathryn (00:31:22):
Just a few things.

Matt (00:31:23):
Yeah. I say that again. Variety. Okay. So, um, going back to the, uh, generalised anxiety disorder and particular comments that I think an underwriter would be, uh, focusing in on would be that your, the comments that you made about travel. Yeah. And so, and so forth. Um, public transport. Now the straight question is, does that stop you in any way doing your job? No. The job that you will be would be insured for.

Kathryn (00:31:54):
No, I was going to say I, um, I think it’s probably quite useful to bring in at this point that obviously I say I, I did my PhD. So about, I handed my PhD three, no, a week later I started my job and I have not had a day off work since for any of the conditions that we’re talking about here. So I handed that in, uh, it was, I think it was around the July of 2000, June or June of 2010. So for the last, almost 12 years, the only time had off work is when I had horrendous man flu.

Matt (00:32:27):
Well, that’s probably terminal for income protection. Then that’s a joke. By the way,

Speaker 3 (00:32:32):
I was going to say, I was thinking, I, what?

Matt (00:32:36):
That pregnant, that pregnant pause, then I thought, oh, no, put right.

Kathryn (00:32:42):
No, you got me. I was thinking, what, what did I say wrong then

Matt (00:32:45):
Also to be fair, that’s belittling, um, horrendous man flew as well. I think it was the man bit me to,

Kathryn (00:32:53):
No, it’s absolutely. I was going to say I’m

Matt (00:32:56):
20 listeners as well. If I,

Kathryn (00:32:59):
No, no, no. I was thinking, can I say man flow? Is it okay for me to say man flow? I’m just going to say it. I’m just going to say it. I get it. So it’s me. I have this, I have woman flow. There we go.

Matt (00:33:09):
Women flow. Yeah. Brilliant. Um, okay. Now this one, this particular, um, disorder is interesting from a underwriting perspective and a lot of positive points here. And I would also, although we didn’t particularly want to cover autism at this particular point, um, some of the, uh, Kathryn would want to talk about her autism and what she’s doing, uh, to it, better understand the condition a little bit later on. But I think that, that, I hope that that would have a very positive impact actually on this, on this general anxiety disorder that you suffer from, by the way, I’m, I completely could be completely talking, um, out of order for which I apologize.

Kathryn (00:33:58):
No, I hope you’re very much right.

Matt (00:34:01):
Well, indeed. Yeah. I, I certainly hope it does, although it’s a little bit early doors at the moment, of course. Um, at this moment in time, there’s, there’s a lot of positive things here, as I said a minute ago. Um, that really, I would think that I would probably exclude the, this at this particular point in time. Mm okay. Um, why, um, it, it is continuous.

Kathryn (00:34:32):
Yeah.

Matt (00:34:33):
Um, which you’ve, you’ve talked about. Um, the, the, the interesting thing is here, and I know you and I have had is that you are what you are doing, I believe, and please correct me if I’m wrong is actually looking after your mental health.

Kathryn (00:34:50):
Yeah.

Matt (00:34:50):
And there’s always this situation where, why do people get penalised by underwriters for looking after their mental health? So those who don’t.

Kathryn (00:34:58):
Yes.

Matt (00:34:59):
And it’s it? That is always a in fact, not entirely sure. I, even after 42 years of underwriting, the actual answer to that. Um, but I would say that there’s been a few things going on. Um, for instance, you’ll talk about pots a little bit later on your recent, relatively recent diagnosis there, the autism, um, recent, relatively recent diagnosis there that I would exclude, but look to review in a, I don’t know, it’s a difficult these review periods or postpone in words, I think is really what I’m trying to say. Maybe for, to people JustOne covered, not for your whole policy, by the way as at this moment in time. But, but, but, um, person reviewing an exclusion for maybe a year or two.

Kathryn (00:35:44):
Yes.

Matt (00:35:45):
That is primarily because let’s, let’s look at, um, the postcard is an interesting one pots in other words, but the, the recent diagnosis of autism and more importantly, forget the actual diagnosis, autism is what you’re doing about it.

Kathryn (00:36:01):
Can we just go back,

Matt (00:36:02):
But that’s, that’s, that’s why I, I think at this moment in time and on balance, even for a, a D 13, I would probably, I would exclude, but I wouldn’t say that, that it is something that I would review, sorry, Catherine. No,

Kathryn (00:36:17):
I was going to say, is this, cause I know we’ve just like jumped towards the pots. Are we just talking about the, if we just focused on the mental health though? Yeah, yeah. In terms of the mental health. So you taking the pots into account with mental health.

Matt (00:36:29):
Well, as you,

Kathryn (00:36:30):
I know it’s hard to distinguish them all, but I, sorry. Thinking if we just kind of go, right. If you had someone who didn’t have pots and autism, all this other stuff going on, so someone with a generalised anxiety disorder. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. What I would probably, um, anticipate that we would see. Um, and I think this is quite an interesting one. If I refer back to the height mobility in, in a little bit as well, but if you are looking at pure mental health, the anxiety disorder, I would expect to see income protection offer, but with a mental health exclusion.

Matt (00:36:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I would, it’s an interesting one. I probably would as well on the balance. Yeah.

Kathryn (00:37:04):
It’s, it’s, you know, it’s, it’s one of those things where I think that in some ways, you know, depending upon the question sets and everything, I actually think it could be quite straightforward to get the insurance as long as people are, are aware that there would be that exclusion there. And what’s interesting for people to be aware of is that if you have something like a mental health exclusion on an income protection policy with some insurers, they discount the premium. Because as I said earlier, the mental health is usually such a high claimable condition that because you’re having it excluded, they will reduce the premiums are lower than what, you know, the, the standard premium is because of the fact that you are obviously having quite a, a big area excluded from the policy. Um, but something that I’d like to, to potentially pose Matt.

Kathryn (00:37:45):
And I don’t think that this is one for us to necessarily, um, focus too much on, on, on this episode. Um, cool. But it’s interesting is that obviously saying that mental health conditions, someone who’s looking after their mental health is taking positive steps, we’ll probably get income protection with an, and a cheaper premium, but on the other side of things, somebody who’s maybe got something like had mobility syndrome, so physical condition, who’s taking steps not to do something that would, in a sense, cause them to maybe have time off work, doesn’t have the same kind of option. You know, it’s with quite a lot of people and a lot of different physical conditions. You know, people actively do things to make sure that they don’t put themselves in. Like, for me, I don’t want to do something where I’m going to break my leg. It’s, you know, I’ll heighten that risk, you know, it’s, it’s something I really, really, really want to avoid, but you know,

Matt (00:38:42):
No, absolutely.

Kathryn (00:38:43):
You know, it’s, You know, it’s, it’s just something intriguing to maybe I’m just, I’m putting that out there for underwriter to maybe have a little think about yeah.

Matt (00:38:51):
The, by the way, it’s, it’s an interesting one. I’ll just throw this in as well. The it’s often when, or, or let me say, I, I would like it to see it happen or hear about it happening. It’s certainly something that, um, I encourage my underwriters to do when I was in corporate world. Um, in fact, I did it myself as well with, with, um, another part of the, uh, of the, uh, a techy team. And that would be the claims people. Yeah. Um, I would, or my underwriter would come up with, uh, an exclusion wording and say to, to the claims people, this is what I’m intending it to do. This is why I want it to do, will it do that?

Kathryn (00:39:33):
Yeah. Will

Matt (00:39:33):
It actually do it? The wording is, is very important when the, in, within these excludes and why I’ve gone off on a tangent slightly, there is, um, hyper syndrome. Are we saying that nobody exclude it?

Kathryn (00:39:52):
Um,

Matt (00:39:53):
The reason for that, I, I would have to do some pretty in depth technical reading around it, but what El, if you an insurer excludes hyper-mobility syndrome, we don’t, well know, excuse my damn. Um, but we know that it’s not, um, EDS.

Kathryn (00:40:12):
Yeah.

Matt (00:40:12):
We know it’s not EDS. Okay. You’re going to, what what’s would the claims people would, would that work in a claims situation? If you excluded hyper mobility and you, um, broke your leg, just to use an example,

Kathryn (00:40:27):
It’s a difficult one. It’s a very, very difficult one because I think it it’s, if anything, it comes down to the situation, doesn’t it in some ways, and you know, and again, that’s why I’m thinking we can’t focus on it too much on this episode

Matt (00:40:39):
We’d be going round in circles, won’t we?

Kathryn (00:40:39):
But it’s like, it’s one of those. No, no, no, but it’s, it’s one of those things isn’t it starts like going well, yes, it would be excluded, but then it seems unfair if it was excluded if they were in a car accident indeed. And you know, the, the leg was broken because I mean, that’s just one of those things, you know, at the same point, if somebody has I, and I’m not saying this, the case, I’m certainly not speaking on behalf of all hyper mobile people, but say for me, if I suddenly went skiing and I broke my leg, I, for my personality, I would be thinking, well, that’s kind of my fault because I did something that really for, for me in the way that my works with height mobility. So not everyone with height mobility, but my own personal body. I know that I should never go skiing.

Kathryn (00:41:26):
Yeah. It’s just not something that I should do. So in that situation, I’d be kind of thinking, well, fair enough. That I’d understand the show and not paying that because I took, I, I made a decision and did something that put me at heightened risk. However, um, obviously there’s a lot of people with height, mobility syndrome who would potentially be going up skiing would be absolutely fine and, and not be the same as myself. So I understand completely that it is not an easy situation. And you can’t, then there’s only a certain amount of individuality that can go into these things. I think so with me, I can’t ever go skiing someone else without ability might be able to, you, you can’t kind of have a rule book that works. I, I don’t know. I don’t know if I’m saying it right. In a sense, you know, everybody’s, body’s completely individual and it’s very difficult to make it generic enough to work for everyone.

Matt (00:42:21):
Oh, indeed. Yeah. I, I suppose what I’m trying to get out here, and again, I’m just thinking of time and, and things like that is, is that, um, creating non automated exclusion wordings is something and tailoring them toing is something that can be used in the underwriting of the more unusual conditions for better expression. Um, that’s really what I’m trying to get out here now, whether I, I know that underwriters are under a huge amount of pressure to, to shift cases. Um, but I, I would say really for the particular case that I’m looking at in front of me, if you want, or the lady I’m talking to, um, if you are really going to explore every avenue, then that should be something that underwriters with their claims people I would add, um, think, should think about doing, I think, you know, that that’s where I’m kind of coming from on here.

Kathryn (00:43:26):
Absolutely. But I think the next two, um, conditions, cause obviously you say timing wise, you know, we, uh, we’ve had a good chat on some of these, um, you know, I think we can probably both say for underactive thyroids. So, um, underactive thy basically just means my thyroid doesn’t work as fast as other people’s. Um, I take 50 milligrams of Lev thyroxin every day just to try and make it do its thing that it needs to do. Um, as far as I’m concerned, maths polysome to you, I can’t see this is being something that’s going to be a, a massive concern to arthritis.

Matt (00:44:00):
I don’t think so. No. Um, the, the, the key is keeping it, keeping your thyroid levels under control. Um, your doctor, your GP should be taking regular. I don’t mean by that every week. Um, thyroid test your thyroid levels to see that everything is okay. Um, and again, if I go back to, is this going to stop you doing your job for three months?

Kathryn (00:44:24):
Mm

Matt (00:44:25):
I and given you history, you don’t, you know, you’ve, you’ve had one period I believe where you’ve had to change your treatment. Yes. Uh, a long time ago now. Um, hold on either which way, um, you, you know, it, it, it, it wouldn’t cause any alarm bells running for me.

Kathryn (00:44:44):
Okay. Brilliant. Um, postal tachycardia syndrome. So this is a, a quite unusual one. Um, I think, uh, so I was diagnosed with this last September. I I’ve known that I’ve had it for pretty much forever. Um, so for me, postal attack car syndrome presents itself, um, in a number of ways, um, in the, the main things are that if I stand up too quickly, I can go dizzy and being clear about that in terms of going dizzy, it can mean that, um, I get black circles in my vision and I can’t see, um, for, for a few seconds until it all settles back down again. Um, I, um, what did I do? I, so, so in this situation like that, when that happens, and obviously, I, I don’t think that necessarily, this will be, take me into account by under writers, but, um, just for, for general knowledge for people.

Kathryn (00:45:34):
So what I simply do in that kind of a situation, if I’ve stood up too quickly, I’m going dizzy. I will just drop to the floor in the sense of I’ll crouch. I’ll do like a superhero pose, you know, where they suddenly land on the floor. I do that. And, um, and that is my way, because then it means that it stops. I have fainted to ice in my life because of it. Um, once was when I was a teenager. So I was 15 and I stood up and fainted, I didn’t drop to the floor. I kind of stood there, thought thinking, right, I’ll just pass. And I woke up in a completely different situation, obviously. And then the second time it’s happened to me was after the birth of my child very directly after his birth. Um, and, um, it had been sort of like a, it had been both a very quick birth.

Kathryn (00:46:22):
Um, well, it’s basically the, well, it was just, it kind of like I was in a long time in the water bath thing, it was very warm. I hadn’t eaten for a long time for good, you know, 12, 16 hours. The delivery itself was very quick because that is one benefit of height, mobility syndrome. The babies come out nice and fast. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, um, and was done all fine and dandy. Everything was fine. I got up to go to the bathroom and just dropped. Um, and obviously my body had been through quite a lot at that stage. They’re the only times that I have fainted. Um, the other thing with it, um, is kind of like connected with it, I think is connected with it. Matt might quit me, is that I have sinus tachycardia, um, which I think is all, all of it’s interconnected.

Kathryn (00:47:08):
So that side of it is this, my heart goes very fast at times if I’m in a stress situation. So how can back to the public transport and, uh, airplanes, um, or if I’m exercising, um, my heart goes very, very fast if I’m doing, um, a Zumba session. So I’m 36. Um, and I am six foot and a little bit heavier than I want to be at the moment it around about 12 stone. Um, and when I exercise my heart rate can very easily get into the 180 S now I’ve had my heart checked completely, um, through exercise stress and everything like that. And my heart, um, it does go fast, but it goes fast at the right. I’m going to hopefully say this the right way, Matt. It goes at the right rhythm that it’s meant to. So the pattern of my heart and it’s Mo it’s the rhythm and everything like that is exactly what it should be. It just happens to be working at a high level than most of the peoples in that would be my age and build and everything like that.

Matt (00:48:15):
Yeah. AB absolutely. I, the, the, the key issues there would be looking for any structural issue within the heart, which has been excluded, of course. So that’s fine. Also rhythm disturbances as well. Couldn’t obviously cause a problem with things like and so on and so forth. And that is not an issue either. Yeah. Um, you know, on the basis that I think you said that any increases happen at the same rate as a normal person. Yes. Yeah. Confirmed by a cardiologist. And in fact, yes, a cardiologist, um, you know, again, that, to something I, I, I can’t, um, get too worried about. Um, can I just ask in terms of the, the pots you, you did mention, I think, which is a very important point for an underwriting that you, you, you feel that you’ve actually had it all your life. Yes. What, what made you suddenly go for it? Um, get it, get yourself checked out in, in September, 2021 diagnosis

Kathryn (00:49:13):
That depend, I’m just getting fed up with people, not listening at times. That’s the whole thing, you know, with, with a lot of the conditions that I have.

Matt (00:49:19):
No, no people sorry. No, you back. Um, brilliant. No, I’m sorry. No,

Kathryn (00:49:27):
Um, no, I I’m trying to think there was sorry off. I’ve been tired and that’s an extra thing with pots. So pots says that you, you do sleep, you do rest, but you are constantly tired. Um, now again, this comes down to, I I’m giggling at this not a condition or anything, but it comes down to other things. Well, why wouldn’t I be tired? I want to businesses. I have three children that attend seven and four. I’ve got parents who are very ill that I help to look after. Um, I’m bound to be tired regardless of the pots, you know, in a sense. Yeah. And, but, you know, it was just a thing of like, right. I’m I am tired. What is this dizziness happening? You know, in, in, you know, why does sisters, you know, cause it, oh, that was it, it started to happen a bit more over a couple of months, I’d been getting a bit more where I stood up and the, the black circles were coming into my vision and I was just like, right. I, I just need to get this salted once and for all, and, um, private medical insurance, so reached out. And, um, luckily there was someone near as a cardiologist. Who’s very, um, keen on this area. And I have been put on some medication. I don’t know if I’m going to say is, is it Eva Adrin or

Matt (00:50:41):
Yeah, no, that’s absolutely

Kathryn (00:50:42):
Right. Um, I can’t remember what the dosage is. It’s not, it’s, it’s like a start dosage, um, to try and see if that helps. Um, and, um, but yeah, I was getting that, but to be honest as well, I had, and I have tried a few times to, um, be vegan. And, um, I think, I think I’m finding out that for me, in terms of my body type and my ability to prepare, um, foods and times and things like that, being vegan just doesn’t suit me at the moment. And I stopped being vegan around that time. And it actually really helped, um, in terms of the dizziness and everything. Um, and again, disclaimer, I’m not saying that you can, you know, you have to not be vegan to stop it or this being vegan is going to cause it, or anything like that. I’m talking about just me and my personal experiences and my body and how it reacts to, to different things that are happening in my life. So, yeah. So that was it. Yeah. I had a couple of months where the dizziness was more

Matt (00:51:40):
Okay. That that’s great with, with pots. One of the, um, complications, if that’s the right express, is, is brain fog and cognitive problems. Can I assume that there is no sign of those?

Kathryn (00:51:55):
Well, again, I don’t mean to be too. Um, I, I, I don’t want to make light of the condition at all. Um, and again, this goes into a bit of my autism as well. It depends. Um, I don’t think I have brain fog. I think I have three young children who don’t stop talking and I find it hard sometimes to remember some things I, I genuinely don’t think it’s, I don’t think it’s that. I don’t think it’s brain fog. I think it’s the kids, but at the same point, I can’t say that I remember absolutely everything with the same accuracy that I used to when I was younger. But again, we’ll talk about that possibly a bit more in terms of the autism.

Matt (00:52:40):
Okay. All righty. Well look, thank you for that. In terms of, um, the income protection side. When I, when I was first, um, thinking through here, I was looking at the, the diagnosis of September, 2021. Um, I think, but, but a key issue for me is that you think you’ve had this all your life, um, and its not impacted your ability to work very, very hard and have three little labs,

Kathryn (00:53:11):
Something as well. So the reason, again, no reason again, why I think I’ve had it on my life is that when my heart rate is going really high and, and all of this, um, so maybe that’s one of the science psychology. I’m not sure, but basically when I was younger, they had said that I had childhood asthma, but actually the sensation and the feeling that I had when I was younger is exactly the same as the feeling I get now when I exercise and, and the reason that that might not people might think, well, why wouldn’t you have known that or monitor that more? So when I was diagnosed with hyper mobility syndrome when I was 12 and because of it in injuries, I was having the guidance at that age was to not do any form of exercise at all. Yeah. So from the age of 12, up until my, um, early thirties, I didn’t exercise.

Kathryn (00:53:57):
And that might sound, that might sound strange to people. Um, but yeah, I didn’t dance so that, you know, the potentially all the risks and everything, um, I see, I didn’t dance obviously went, I did do some clubs and I did dance at clubs. Um, but you know, I didn’t do like full, I didn’t do cardio. I didn’t do any of that kind of exercise for all those years for, you know, almost a good 20 or so years. So I’ve only just started to realize that some of the symptoms that I feel now through exercise actually mirror what I’m, what I experienced in childhood. So, so that was just an extra thing as to why I thought all my life.

Matt (00:54:28):
No, no, that’s all right. I, I think again, you know, when we were talking about the, the, the hypermobility, um, I, I just, I sound like a step record, but I think it’s very, very important is to, to bring these things out.

Kathryn (00:54:43):
Yeah.

Matt (00:54:44):
If and when people look to apply for particularly income protection insurance, um, cause otherwise you’re going to be leaving the underwriter with a, uh, in a difficult situation of them, not really knowing the full picture.

Kathryn (00:54:59):
Yeah.

Matt (00:55:00):
Um, and full pictures on income protection are very, very important, particularly with mental health, particularly with things like, um, postal, tachycardia, pots. Um, and also let’s be honest about it also S talked about hyper mobility, but generalised Al issues as well.

Kathryn (00:55:17):
Yeah.

Matt (00:55:18):
Um, you know, it, it, it’s important. I know it’s quite difficult to think of what, how, how an underwriters head works. I’m quite sure myself, to be honest with you, but you can guess, uh, you know, Catherine, you mentioned it already, you can get questionnaires that do delve down a little bit more into the questions, medical questionnaires, sorry. I’m talking about here. So Al disorders for as an example, mental health, um, disorders as an example. Yeah. Um, and, and that if, if you’re sure quite what to ask and how, how, um, uh, how to delve down those, those will certainly give you a few clues. Yeah. Um, but yeah. Try try, rather than just simply say pots.

Kathryn (00:55:59):
Yeah.

Matt (00:56:00):
I would delve down into it more and give the underwriter as more, as much information as you possibly can.

Kathryn (00:56:05):
Absolutely.

Matt (00:56:07):
Possibly that’s me said on that one, if I may.

Kathryn (00:56:09):
No, that’s fine. I mean, for me, in terms of what we see, we would generally be expecting postal tachycardia syndrome to be accepted for income protection and for it to be a bit of a premium increase. Now that is to say that obviously we are talking, you know, that there’s, there’s been the, the investigations have been done. Everything is being managed well in terms of symptoms and everything like that. That’s, that’s what we would generally see from our research. Does that kind of match what you would think, Matt? Well,

Matt (00:56:37):
Yeah, generally I think, um, I would, and I think here things like dizziness and it doesn’t apply to you and your job, but dizziness can be an issue if, for instance, you have a manual job, say, let’s say working at heights, driving, doing something to heavy machinery, so on and so forth. Um, so yeah, in your, in your, um, scenario with your occupation then tend to be, think there isn’t too much of an issue here. Key though, for me, I would have to say is that you, you you’ve had it all your life. Yeah. It wasn’t just a recent diagnosis of only six months ago. Yes. Um, you, you mentioned, or I took that you were on a trial with, um, even yes. Um, so we’re not necessarily the end of that particular. Um,

Kathryn (00:57:32):
Yeah.

Matt (00:57:33):
Yeah. How do I put it? It’s

Kathryn (00:57:35):
New treatment? Isn’t it

Matt (00:57:36):
A story? Is that right? I don’t know if that’s word on pots yet and we don’t quite know maybe what’s going on. Um, that’s, that’s the only thing, but on the basis you’ve had it since you were a youngster, then I would feel darn more comfortable.

Kathryn (00:57:50):
Brilliant. Okay. So the last one then autism. So I will give a bit of background about that. Um, so obviously this is all linked in with my, um, mental health diagnosis as well that I, I now know. Um, but, um, so I’ve been diagnosed with autism, uh, cast as level one, uh, which was traditionally, um, diagnosed as Asperger’s, but they don’t diagnose Aspergers as its own condition. Now it is just cast as autism and Yomo on the scale. Um, or they might say high functioning autism. And again, they, they don’t specifically say that anymore because it seems to be, there feels a there’s, um, a negativity, um, to people who aren’t maybe considered to be high functioning. You know, what, what that kind of negative connotation of that wording is. Um, the, yeah, so I was diagnosed, uh, so basically this was something that I had done privately and it was to try and help me, I think, understand myself my, so when I was just going back a little bit to mental health, so when I was first diagnosed my mental health in, um, 2020, and I saw that psychologist, and this does feed into why I said, I didn’t have a positive experience.

Kathryn (00:58:56):
There was multiple things that weren’t positive about it. But one of the first things, when I went into the sessions was I said to her, I think I have Asper just cause obviously at the time that was specifically the wording then, and she actually just laughed and said, no, you don’t. And then that was the end of it. And I didn’t have the confidence to ask back anyone again. And, um, and what was lovely is that I’ve been, I was speaking to some people within the industry recently. It was about almost been about a year ago now and, um, and were chatting away. And they were asking me about like, well, what happens for people who are autistic when they’re going for insurance? I was going through it all and everything. I was saying anything. And as I was chatting to them, I haven’t say something like, oh, obviously I don’t have AUM, but I have this thing called hypermobility syndrome.

Kathryn (00:59:34):
So I can appreciate how it can be quite tricky, sometimes know what to do with insurance. And, uh, this was all done by zoom, Soly and lockdown. And they kind of, I don’t know how, but they both kind of like looks at each other on the video and I don’t know how, because they weren’t together, you know, in separate places know. And I was just like, what was that look? And they’re like, well, they said not always, but sometimes, you know, high mobility syndrome is linked to autism. Yeah. And I said, well, how’s, I, I have thought about this. Um, but, and I was like, and I don’t want it to, you know, because I was really worried then about seeming as if I was like negating or trying to jump on the bandwagon of the people I was speaking to having autism. And then me saying, oh yeah, I can be one of you guys kind of thing, which I obviously I didn’t want to be.

Kathryn (01:00:16):
Um, but in terms of my autism and how it affects me, um, obviously some of it it’s going to sound terrible. Cause a lot of it is not going to sound very modest. Um, so I’ll, I’ll say the positives, cause I really, really do want to focus the fact that autism can be a positive and not necessarily, um, negative. So for me, the positives are that it’s given me a very analytical mind. Um, I things very well. So going back to the brain fog mat, um, so you know, what can happen is, and sometimes, and it’s just something that with me, but it can, I think sometimes I want to say freak people out and I don’t want it sound like as if it’s something freaky, but you know, I, I remember distinctly at university, once I was chatting with someone and they were like, oh no, we didn’t do that cost together.

Kathryn (01:01:01):
And I was like, yes, we did do that call. Like, no I didn’t. I was like, yes we did because I was sat in this work and you were sat six words behind me. Then this person was sat, stood in front of us and the, the room. And I, I described the room and everything and everyone around me was just like looking at me. Like I was really strange and I made a joke of it and just said, oh, I’ve just got really weird memory. Um, um, dreams. I can literally tell you my dreams, like of a good two hours and everything. And like A’s always, uh, always, always, uh, having a bit of a giggle with me and he says, right. He goes, if you’re going to tell me about a dream, let me get a cup cause that, and he’ll say, he goes, you’ll start off here.

Kathryn (01:01:33):
Started going right in my dream. It was the day of the 3rd of June and the spring air was nice and there was a missed on the floor and I’ll start off like that. And it’s true. I have an incredible amount in terms of detail. Um, it helps very much in terms of, uh, the business and um, I, the way that I describe it is kind of like I have, I feel like I have about 20 different roots of conversations and things going on in my head, um, which in itself is really positive in terms of fast decision making. Also we seeing flaws in systems and in communications. Um, that’s a, a key thing that I can do. Um, but it also can sometimes get me into a little bit of trouble because, um, for me, and it comes down again, this then feeds into a little bit of the social and the mental health side of things.

Kathryn (01:02:20):
Um, so if there’s a project in front of me and we need to plan something, well, I’ve gone down very, very quickly. I’ve gone down 20 different route, also figuring out which ways are going to work, not going to work. And then I’ll say, all right, we need to do it this way. And that can make it seem like I’m very abrupt and blunt. And that sometimes it’s something I’ve had to work on very specifically. And this feeds in obviously as well, I’m adding into the terms of like, does it affect your ability to work and things like that? Sure. It doesn’t in a sense affect my ability to work, but it does because I, I have to watch myself and how I can be communicate to make sure I don’t put other people out. So if I have, you know, if I’ve done all this and, but other people are saying, but this project idea, and it’s one that they really love, but I’ve seen why it won’t work.

Kathryn (01:03:11):
I have to not shut it down. I have to make sure that I talk about it in such a way. And it, it sounds awful, but help them go down the route to see why it won’t work in the long run. Yep. To, to, and, and it’s really hard because it’s hard because I don’t want to seem like I’m condescending. It’s hard because, um, I then also instinctively my instinct is to not waste time, but I have to in my head because of the fact that I’m having to make sure that everyone else catches up with me and, and I, that could sound really conceited. Um, and it’s not meant to be, but it is the way that my mind works now in terms of work and social aspects of things, um, it feeds into, again, stuff like going into the, some of the symptoms that I have mental health wise, like not wanting to go to London on a train or a plane.

Kathryn (01:04:02):
The reason I don’t like trains and planes is because it’s, um, my senses are being overloaded, but I never knew that it was due to my autism. And I just felt that, so a big thing for me to be again open about is so, so that people understand why we’ve kind of done this and why think it’s important? You know, I was told when I was to, into the, the mental health side of things, I was told, I was 12 that my body was useless. And that was what was said to me. And that I, and I was told that I would be in a wheelchair by the time I was 18 and touch with that’s not happened. And when I had my mental health, my immediate thought from that was, well, my, my mind’s useless, um, bar being academically clever. Um, and that is huge things to have from the age of 12.

Kathryn (01:04:51):
And then that knock again at the age of 20. And what’s been lovely about the autism diagnosis at age 36 is that it’s given me a, on the mental health side of things. Um, some permission to forgive myself and to say, you know what, this isn’t actually my mental health. This is sensory overload, and this is the world not being designed in the way that my mind sees things. Um, and that’s, that goes for business practices. It also goes for people, you know, um, when we’re talking about autism in the workplace and things like that, you know, there are certain things, um, that we need to do. Um, you know, I, I, people, we, we live at the coast and, uh, people I think have like a rotor of when I’m not in the office because I ban fish and chips from the office because the smell triggers my, um, autism and the smell.

Kathryn (01:05:42):
And I can’t be in the room with this fish and chips there. Um, and you know, there’s other things as well. And I think, I feel like I’ve gone like on a bit of a side tangent for this, um, in some ways, so I do apologize, but I’m just trying to make sure that I, I explain it to people. Um, I went through as well. And, um, my moments when I was first diagnosed, if I kept apologizing to people all the time at work, and again, I was trying not to be condescending, but I was doing mind maps and I was going, I’m really sorry if I’m going too far ahead, but I’m, I’ve just found out I’m autistic and I might jump certain areas. You might not know why I’ve jumped that way. Please just stop me. It’s my fault. Just stop me and I’ll go back and I’ll explain to you how I’ve jumped.

Kathryn (01:06:20):
And everybody was so lovely. They were so, so nice because they were just like, you know what, it’s okay. You know, you don’t need to apologize. It’s fine. I will let you know if, if we need to go back a step and that was really, really lovely. But you know, at the same point, you know, there can be times I can be a bit blunt or a bit abrupted and, and really try not to be, but it can happen. Just the thing is though, I think with everybody you can, anyone can be blunt in a abrupted, it doesn’t have to be autism. Um, but you know, it is something that I do have to work on, um, for me from a, a work point of view. So from a traditional work, being able to do my job point of view, I see my autism as an asset, um, for the ability to go out and have drinks with everybody afterwards. I see my autism as a negative in a sense. Um, but please do feel free to ask away Matt about, um, how I am in, in the autism side of things.

Matt (01:07:24):
Okay. Well we, again, well thank you for being so open for a start. Um, it it’s um, it’s fascinating, absolutely fascinating. And, um, from personal perspective for you as a person, I mean by that, um, you know, I, I, it seems to me you are on the, the first few rows of a very, very positive journey. Yes. Um, without any shallow note and, um, I would never apologise for, um, uh, seeing the world in a different way. I think the world would be well let’s if we can take the world as a positive, I suppose, some of the things that are going on in it. Mm. Um, you know, we wouldn’t be here today. Yeah. Um, if, if it didn’t have people who had autistic traits in it, let’s be honest. And I know when we did, when we spoke about autism historically on the podcast, there are some, um, some incredible people, extremely successful people, um, who, um, who are autistic.

Matt (01:08:31):
So, you know, it, I would personally take a very positive thing. Yes. Um, and, um, as I say, I think you’re on the beginning of a journey here, which, um, you know, I’m pretty confident, don’t know you that well, Catherine, by the way, but, uh, I’m pretty confident it’ll, um, it’ll be all very positive stuff and, and certainly help with the, um, the anxiety disorder. At least at least it’ll open, um, an understanding of why, of which you’ve just articulated really, you know, some of the things, um, absolutely you do about the sensory overload, et cetera, cetera, and why they’re actually happening. And I think if, you know, I it’s a guess and, uh, I hope it’s the way I would react would be that once, you know, why a particular feeling is occurring, then that’s half the battle in, in quantum better expression, controlling it,

Kathryn (01:09:23):
Absolutely

Matt (01:09:24):
Feeling more comfortable in your soul about it as well. And that I think would probably reduce the anxiety. So more power on that one. Um, right. Okay. Looking at, um, the job, this is what we’re talking about here with income protection course, and your ability to do your job does, does autism in its own. Right. Um, let’s put it this way. We’re talking today about, about level one autism, does that stop you doing your job? No. End of, um, the one thing that did, did cross my mind, um, was how much of your job is actually talking to potential clients?

Kathryn (01:10:12):
Oh, uh, well, my, my job just changing a little bit.

Matt (01:10:18):
Let’s, let’s look at future, you know, we talking about autism future. So

Kathryn (01:10:23):
Do you mean, sorry. So do you mean clients or do you mean just basically my interaction with people?

Matt (01:10:28):
No. Well, I’m just thinking, I’m thinking about your job and if you could not interact with customers.

Kathryn (01:10:34):
Yeah.

Matt (01:10:36):
What percentage would that take out of your ability to do your job?

Kathryn (01:10:41):
Oh, so my ability to not interact with customers based upon a very typical week. Oh, I going to say, um, let’s say Right. Okay. Yeah. I’m just trying to think. So let’s say a day, you know, if I spoke to customers for full day, um, that would be that part of my week because a lot of my week now is, um, training the team.

Matt (01:11:09):
Yep.

Kathryn (01:11:10):
And, um, obviously, so training our new advisors and, um, marketing and compliance as well as, so I, I do advise people, but training, marketing compliance is now currently kind of my, some key areas for at least the next foreseeable few months.

Matt (01:11:27):
Okay. And you, you does, does

Kathryn (01:11:31):
All of them need interaction except compliance. Could be quite blunt. That probably suit me really well.

Matt (01:11:38):
I shall leave compliance to you. Although it’s saying that I find it fascinating as well, but then maybe that’s just me. Um, uh, what’s I going to say the, um, so what I’m trying to get at here is, is the fact that you feel, am I right in thinking you feel uncomfortable talking to people who you don’t know?

Kathryn (01:11:56):
No, I’m absolutely fine talking to, ah, ah, this is interesting. I feel very comfortable talking to people that I don’t know, like clients on the phone or video calls and I would think I’d be the same in person. So my, with feeling comfortable with new people is if I’m in a social situation.

Matt (01:12:20):
Right. Okay.

Kathryn (01:12:21):
Because business wise I mask.

Matt (01:12:24):
Yeah. And, and does the fact that, you know what you’re talking about also help an awful lot there where in the social situation,

Kathryn (01:12:30):
I have no idea what to talk about. So I’m just kind of like, why do I talk about work? Well, I can’t talk about work because you know, they’re going to, you know, but yeah. In work it’s just like, right. Well, here’s, I, I, I often think of myself and I’ve always said this. Um, I kind of sometimes feel like I’m acting in different roles. So like, in terms of like, so when I’ve been, when I’ve spoken at conferences before, and obviously some of the listeners here, would’ve heard me speak at conferences when I’ve done that, obviously they certainly don’t see what’s going on inside because it would seem very scary in a sense what’s going on how I’m feeling, but I put on the mask of presenter and I act the presenter. Yeah. And so when I’m speaking to people in terms of clients, I, in my version, how I’m, how I can describe it is I put on the mask of advice and then it becomes a professional and I’m just doing my job.

Matt (01:13:22):
Yeah, yeah, no, that’s absolutely fine. I was, I was just, I suppose, again, looking at your occupation and the skill sets you needed in your occupation, does any of these conditions stop you doing it? Um, or, or, or hinder you doing it? And the answer to that know, not just heard now autism in its own. Right. It’s uh, I, I just can’t get excited in terms of the risk that it presents. I think, you know, again, you have to individualise this, but I, and I will with you positive journey, um, which, which will certainly help. I think hopefully some of these certainly the generally the, uh, an anxiety disorder. So again, its own right. Doesn’t cause it doesn’t cause me an issue. The, the one here that’s, um, that I would, would make me uncomfortable would be the, the anxiety disorder that you have that said, I think particularly with what the work that you’re doing, um, in, in the autism, um, spectrum, if you want, um, I hope would help that.

Matt (01:14:28):
Hence why earlier I, um, you know, I would probably look to put an exclusion on, but, but say to you let’s review in one to two years, let’s say 18 months, something like that. And at that particular time it would be a conversation around has all the work that you’ve done on with better understanding your autism and explaining to you what, why you get stressed in certain, uh, anxious, sorry, in certain, um, situations, cause that helps you in your life. But ultimately at the end of the day, we’re, you know, sorry, I don’t mean to patronize you there you’ll know, but, um, you know, we are looking at your job here. That’s what, that’s what the insurance pays out on your inability to do your job and, um, you know, the, the, the anxiety disorder, if it got worse, potentially you would, you’ve already talked about, it’s one of the biggest claims areas there is for, for, um, for insurance companies. But you know, you, you, you a clumsy expression, but you’re doing something about it.

Kathryn (01:15:32):
Yeah, no, absolutely. I think that’s interesting. I think what’s interesting as well to see how, what we see in a sense when we’re doing the research. So we do get quite a mix, um, in terms of the, the research and obviously quite a lot of people with autism do have mental health conditions as well. Yeah. Um, and you know, we, we tend to get a mix of being told old, well, obviously, you know, we might exclude, you know, potentially exclude mental health. Um, some of them say, well, actually, you know, we’re not, we’re not concerned if it’s, you know, the autism, um, some of us say, well, autism, we declining, um, you know, I’ve got some in front of me that I can see as well where it’s a, when it’s a mixture of Aspergers and, uh, mental health of condition, it’s some of the ensure the same when it’s automatic decline for income protection, which I think is quite a,

Kathryn (01:16:21):
Quite a sad situation in, in, in many ways. Um, but it’s, there’s a mix there. And what I’d say is Whil, I’m saying that is for anybody who’s listening, who is, um, similar to myself. Um, obviously, um, it’s always worth asking because, you know, there are some who are saying that, but there are others who are sometimes saying, well, actually we can potentially look at this. You know, there is likely, especially if there’s a mental health involvement, there’s likely to be a mental health exclusion. If there isn’t any mental health, uh, history there, then there could be options. One thing I would like, and I think really important to be clear on with this as well is, um, because we do sometimes have these, uh, questions is people come to us and they maybe do have, um, a stronger health condition, not necessarily just autism, um, but you know, a stronger health condition, which means that they’re, uh, a receipt of state benefits, uh, you know, pay personal independence payment, um, or potentially even some of the, they must still be on some of the older ones where it was to do with, um, disability allowance, things like in income protection and not designed to ensure those benefits.

Kathryn (01:17:25):
It is purely from worked income and from being in employment or self-employment. Um, so I just think that was a quite important thing to just clarify there at the end then that

Matt (01:17:35):
Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely.

Kathryn (01:17:37):
Okay then. Right. Well, I think that’s been really good.

Matt (01:17:40):
Does that help a lot?

Kathryn (01:17:41):
I think it really is helpful and I think it’s really good as well to just finish on here, sorry, towards the end as well, just to explain. Um, so we’ve said all this, this is all in relation to, to personal income protection. If you have the ability, um, to access something that’s known as group income protection, it can be completely different. What the outcomes are. There can be really, really favorable options. And um, quite a bit of the time there can be options with the out exclusions for the preexisting conditions. Um, that’s much more specific, um, advice side of things that we need to go down to. We are absolutely really pushing our time in here. So I don’t want to, I can’t really go into that today, but there is a group insurance, um, episode out on the podcast that we did previously.

Kathryn (01:18:22):
So please do have a listen to that if you want to know more. Um, but obviously thank you everybody for listening and as always, thank you so much for your insights, Matt. Um, I hope that today has obviously puts some people’s minds at ease in terms of access to insurance, what they might face, hopefully some favorable, um, information. Some of it is maybe not being as favorable as people would maybe want, but we, we are trying to be as realistic as possible so that people know what to expect. And I also hope that it’s really spot ask some ideas for change, um, with, um, the insurers and the insurers. And as always, I’m always happy to chat to people very openly. Um, if they do want to talk about anything of specifically any, um, product developments in this area, um, next time I’m going to be back with why McLaughlin and he’s going to be joining me with our special guest Catherine Betley from Grief Chat. And she’s going to be talking about a her company and counselors and how are they helping people to cope through some incredibly tough times. If you’d like a reminder of the next episode, please drop me a message on social media or visit their website practical hi and protection dot code at UK. And don’t forget that if you’ve listened to this as part of your work, you can claim a CPD certificate on the website too. Thanks to our sponsors, the Optima members. Thank you again, Matt.

Matt (01:19:34):
My pleasure Cheerio.