Episode 3 – THE Best Insurer

Hi, everybody, I changed my mind and I’ve not done a medical deep dive and instead focused upon who is the ultimate insurer. Sadly, there isn’t one. Our lives would be so much easier if there was…

In this episode I have discussed the things that different insurers offer, that stand out to me. So this is my opinion, based upon my experience of when a client has explained their circumstances and I have gone ‘ooooh, Insurer X will be perfect’. I’m not going into underwriting or every single thing that makes an insurer unique, it’s just an overview of key parts of their products and services that make them a good choice for your client.

The key takeaways:

Key titbits of 19 insurers offering protection insurance in the UK
There are a lot of insurers and most of them have developed at least one unique product, or service, to support a client niche
Insights into different life insurance, critical illness and income protection products

Alan will be back with me next time for a deep dive into a medical condition and how it’s underwritten for protection insurance. I keep saying that he will and then I get excited by another idea and put him off! We are always happy to take your suggestions on what to cover so please feel free to fire over any areas that you would like us to go into.

Remember, if you are listening to this as part of your work, you can claim a CPD certificate on our website, thanks to our sponsors PlannerX.

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Transcript

Kathryn Knowles 00:07

Hi everybody, we are on season 12, episode three, and today I’m going to be talking about who is the best insurer for arranging protection insurance in the UK. This is the Practical Protection Podcast, so I’ve drawn you in with the promise of the best insurer in the UK. However, there isn’t one. It’s impossible to say that one is best rather than the others, because there’s so many different situations, so many different client needs, in terms of products, in terms of underwriting, which is why we do have as many insurers as we have, and all the different products that we have, because they can’t, they can’t all simply do everything that a client needs, and they’ve all got different risk appetites. So this episode is going to be focusing upon my opinion of what stands out for each insurer. I’m not going to be covering absolutely every insurer that’s available in the UK, some of them are ones, you know, some insurers don’t work directly with brokers, so we can’t really comment on them. Well, I can’t, because I don’t use them. Some of them are insurers that I use who maybe at the moment don’t have anything that I think really makes me think, “Ooh, them. And so the other thing, as well, to be clear on, I am not going to be deep diving into, like, well, this person’s critical illness contract is better than this, or their IPs, but you know, and all this kind of thing. Mainly, I’m saying that from the critical illness point of view, because there’s so many differences, so many definitions, so many different levels of claims, you know, sorry, criteria per insurer that isn’t available to brokers, so you know, I’m not going to be going into that. I’m going to make a couple of comments on critical illness cover, but I’m not going to be doing that kind of an analysis, and there’s also sort of the thing on underwriting as well, I am not going to be saying, “Oh, if you’ve got someone who’s got type one diabetes, go here. Mainly on the reason, as well as that, obviously, insurance have different risk appetites, they have different underwriting philosophies, but they do like to have quite a, a, I think, a spread of risk, so they’re not just, you know, obviously just usually just one risk, and that’s all they do. They like to see a mixture. So, if I suddenly said, “Well, this insurer over here is currently pricing well for these people, they’re probably not going to be too particularly happy if they suddenly get flooded with people with that underwriting risk. They might be depending upon the risk, however. I don’t want to be going into that kind of thing, and it’s also a bit too much for me to go through. So, I’m mainly going to be commenting upon the products, the different things that insurers do, and just so that you know, basically, because there are some real tidbits with different insurers that are very, very useful to know, and also, as well, I’ll be giving you information, but as with anything, it is important to then go and do your own research and the things I’ve mentioned, and and I can’t go into absolute every single bit of detail about the things I’m mentioning, so you do want to go and have a look yourself and just make sure that you understand exactly what is and isn’t on offer. So let’s go through the list. Some of these will be quite quick for me to go through, and to be honest, most of them will probably be quite quick for me to go through, but there’s quite a few insurers to cover. Okay, so let’s start with Aviva. So, in terms of things with Aviva that kind of make them stand out, and would make me think with a client possibly, like, oh, there, that’s a reason to maybe go for them. So, a couple of things. The first one be the global treatment. So, the global treatment is an add-on that we can include to the Aviva protection products, and I believe at the moment it’s three pound per month, but that three pound can change, so whereas your main part of the policy could be guaranteed premiums, a global treatment could change. It is an add-on, so it could also stop being available at some point.

Kathryn Knowles 03:56

So you do need to factor that in if you’re specifically going to Aviva for this, but global treatment is something where it’s not private medical insurance, so let’s just be very clear about that. But what they do is they basically say if, as a policyholder, you are diagnosed with one of these conditions that they have listed, and the best treatment for you is outside the UK, let’s say it’s in China, as an example, and what they will do is they will take you and a loved one, they will fly you to China, pay for your travel, pay for your accommodation, pay for your treatment, and bring you back to the UK, which is brilliant. For three pound per month, it’s phenomenal. So it’s definitely worth considering and making people aware of that, especially, you know, it might not be something that makes you absolutely go for Aviva over another provider, but if you are recommending Aviva, then it’s certainly an extra to add on and potentially look at, and I have to say, for myself, it has definitely been something where it has been my deciding factor between Aviva and another firm. Because I’ve said to somebody, well, this is what it covers, and then I, oh yeah, absolutely, I like that, and obviously we can’t be saying it’s private medical insurance, but if somebody is not able to afford medical insurance, as well as the other things that they’re doing for an extra three pound, it gives them that little bit of extra security, we also have with Aviva, so they did, for a little while, do a relevant critical illness plan through business for an employee. That product didn’t stay for too long, and they have since done a significant employee illness cover. Now, what that is, is it’s it’s similar to a critical illness contract. It has, it covers a lot less than what a personal critical illness contract will cover, but it is something that can be done through a business, and you just then have to decide between you and your client as to whether or not it’s the benefits of doing it through the business and covering them for those conditions, and obviously some of the advantages that can come with doing it through a business versus maybe doing a personal policy instead, which would cover more situations, but then doesn’t come with the advantages of doing it through the business. That is definitely one to do some more research on. Another thing that they do is a specific product and for income protection called Living Costs Cover, so it’s a maximum 12 month claim, and you can cover up to 1500 pounds per month without any financial assessment, which is really, really positive, especially for people who are fluctuating incomes or lower incomes. It’s a nice way of being able to get that extra bit of security for people. So that was a viva for their things that make me think that’s where they kind of stand out for me. So, now let’s look at British friendly, so they have a simplified income protection option, which is one where fewer questions than a full income protection policy, so like application process, and you can go up to a five year claim period with that, which can be a really affordable option for people, and also naturally it does suit people as well, who maybe are finding it trickier to get income protection with a full term claim elsewhere. You then do also have things similar to whatever Vivek have, but you’ve got the income protection, the breathing space option, so that is up to a 60 month claim again, and up to 1083 pounds per month without any financial assessment. So, again, self-employed people are fluctuating incomes, people with lower incomes that could potentially, in when we’re saying the lower incomes in these specific products, where there’s no financial assessment, people could be potentially insuring themselves more than what they actually bring home, but that’s one of the ways, as well, though, where that’s why the one of the claim reasons that it’s obviously a shorter claim period as well, because we want to make sure that people are obviously, if possible, getting back into work, and also not completely over insuring people. I’m not sure if that massively makes sense. It does make sense.

Kathryn Knowles 08:04

I just don’t know if I’ve actually said it correctly, in the sense of making it completely applicable and understandable, but it’s a good way. If you’ve got somebody who is, you know, in a typical income protection policy, would maybe have to do 800 pound max benefit. Actually, with these policies, you could do them over 1000 pound, and they would be eligible for that amount of cover. They can also, as well as British Friendly, cover quite niche jobs, so things like pilots, sailors, not talk about the Navy here, and talk about other things, which is really, really good, because if you’re not going to get them covered elsewhere, British friendly is often the place to go, and then also you do have the option to add children’s critical illness cover to their income protection policy, which is really, really good and useful, because if you think about it, if you’re somebody, you’re a parent and you’ve got income protection and your child is suddenly really, really ill, and you’re probably going to want to take time off work, and that doesn’t necessarily mean that the income protection policy is going to be able to step in and provide you support, because you yourself are not well, and I’ll chat about this with another provider in a bit, but it’s not yourself that’s ill, so it might not kick in, so if you’ve got the children’s critical illness cover, it can obviously help possibly buffer any time that you need to take out if your employer isn’t obviously offering any financial support, as well as hopefully some extra funds to help in other areas as well. Canada life in the group space, so Canada Life for their group life, their group critical illness, and their group group income protection can cover from a minimum two people for their group products, which is really, really positive. They’ve got some really good what’s known as free cover medical, free medical cover limits, even. And you know, their questions in terms of eligibility factors are really good as well. So certainly worth looking at now, but just remember, if you’re looking at the group side of things, covering from a minimum two people is absolutely fine, but you just need to make sure that that meets the eligibility criteria, so we can’t have what’s known as anti-selection, so as a very quick example, if you’ve got three directors and you want to cover two of them for life insurance, but the third one nobody likes, and they want them to go, so they don’t want to give them this lovely group life insurance cover. That’s not going to happen, you know. Everybody of the same category, or in some ways, if you.. it’s sometimes easy to think of it as almost like your traditional hierarchical structure of a business. So everybody of the same tier would generally need to be insured in the same way for the group protection space. It is a bit more complicated than that when you get into it, but from like a very generic kind of overview, you know, basically all directors would need to be covered, or all managers are directors and managers together, or you could do managers, not directors, but generally, if it’s two people, you do get some two-person companies, often like a married couple, or maybe set up a business, and that can be a really, really positive way of giving them both financial security. Right back to the IP side of things, the sirens tester friendly. What’s really good with sirens, sister friendly, and I like, and I’ve done it a few times with some people recently is the fact that there is no difference in price if you do the policy to say age 68 which is a lot of people’s anticipated retirement ages now, are to age 70.

Kathryn Knowles 11:32

There’s literally no change in price, and I did a quote recently for someone, and even if I did it to age 60 versus age 70, there was no difference in price, and you might think, well, what’s the point, because they’re going to retire, and it’s like, well, yeah, but you could do it at the same price as 60, you know, if you did it to age 70 or 68 it’s the same price, but if they reach age 68 and retire, then you just cancel, they can cancel the policy, and it’s no hardship to them, but let’s say, if they’ve made a claim, well, that’s giving them, if you have done it to age 70, it’s giving them an extra two years worth of claimable time on that policy, so it’s a really, really good outcome for the client. If there is a claim that you’ve given them that ability to access two more years, there is also, as well, that that kind of potential issue, as well as an advisor, if you are aware of something like this, and you haven’t done it, as to sort of like, well, why haven’t you done it, and you don’t want to have that issue where somebody could potentially make a complaint to say, well, I could have had two years more worth of income, and I’ve not, because you didn’t understand the way that that policy and that product was priced, so definitely have a good think about it, and they do really price very, very well, as well, for higher class occupations, even when you’re looking at fixed rates. A lot of your friendlies do have reviewable, guaranteed, age-banded premiums, so do keep an eye on those, but they generally sound as friendly, price very, very well. You can also, as well, cover has the spots quite well with our ancestor friendly too, potentially without exclusions, so just you know, again, motor spots isn’t, is not really their thing, let’s put that out there, but a lot of other things can be covered, which again, in terms of, like, your more mainstream insurers, you can quite easily start racking up exclusions. Moving on to the Exeter now, so the Exeter life cover highest loading acceptance that you’re going to get with mainstream insurers. So basically, with insurers, they will, as many of you will be aware they’ll do things like if they’re going to rate a policy premium wise, they’ll say maybe like plus 50 or plus 100% on the premium, and they will have a certain cap where they say, right, once we’ve got to plus this much percent, we’re going to decline, because we’re starting to think that this person is quite a high risk of making a claim that’s generally what the background argument is with it, so what is really good about the Xs, they just do the life insurance side, well, they do income protection as well, but they don’t do kick, so they don’t just do life, ignore me, right, so on the life insurance side of things, they will go to a much higher percentage than other firms will do, so they really, really are a good one to check over if you’ve checked your usuals, and you’re thinking, well, no one’s going to do this, fire the extra question. They’re really, really good on that. They also have some other things as well, which are really useful. So, set life cover, really high percentage loading and possibilities, so they will take much more on than other mainstreaming shows as well, they also have a fixed income protection benefit, where basically you can lock in the monthly sum assured that you’re doing to protect against changes in the future, and so what you do is you usually have to provide evidence upfront to say, like, maybe three months worth of pay slips to prove what the income is. And let’s say, let’s just say 1000 pounds, just to make it nice and easy for me, and so somebody’s gone for 1000 pound monthly benefit, they provided the pay strips that would show that they’re eligible for that, and they get the 1000 pounds locked in.

Kathryn Knowles 15:14

Well, what’s really good about that is that if, for say some reason in the future, if their income level drops, the Exeter will honor that 1000 pound, which is really, really, really good, because obviously that’s not the way it would work with other firms, and they also have an excellent pre-sale tool. So I’m just going to put it out there. If any insurers are listening, the Exeter’s pre-sale tool is really, really good, makes it very, very easy for advisors to be able to, to sort of get some good feedback without having to like constantly drag on the insurer’s resources for underwriting research and things like that. So it’s, it really stands out. So definitely, definitely give them a look. Moving on to Guardian, so Guardian have a few things now. On you, the Guardian now offer two versions of their life insurance, so we’ve got the essentials and their original. So I’m going to say original and essentials, because that’s basically the wording that is popping into my head. So on the original cover, you had the enhanced terminal illness cover, which basically meant if you were diagnosed with a terminal illness, and if it was like stage four cancer, the terminal illness would pay out. There’s no debating it or anything like that. Now, terminal illness in itself comes with life insurance. It’s just sort of standard with most life insurance policies in the UK, and it’s not really been updated for a very, very long time. I think even since it sounds terrible, even since the last century, I feel so old. But the problem is, is that it’s not kept up to date with modern treatment. So, with terminal illness, it’s all about being told that you’ve got usually that you’ve been told that you’ve got less than 12 months left to live. Now it is incredible, and generally this is often cancer related. It is very, very, very uncommon now for an oncologist or any other specialist to say for definite that a person has less than 12 months left to live, they, they just don’t do it. There’s always some kind of new development, some new trial of medicines, so many different things. And also, it is obviously, it’s very hard to say that, you know, and, and to know what the outcome is going to be. There are some situations where it is obviously very, very clear, and some people, unfortunately, do pass very, very quickly from diagnosis, but in general, it isn’t something that is typically said, and when it comes to doing a TI claim with most insurers, they want that definitive answer, and if you think about the 1990s somebody being diagnosed with certain cancers, it would have been a case of, yeah, there’s there’s going to be less than 12 months left here, very, very straightforward, but so the insurance world and the terminal illness hasn’t kept upstate with modern medicine, and modern medicine has now changed to instead of saying absolutely to maybe, or we believe, or I think, and we believe, or I think words that mean that the insurers will say that doesn’t mean it absolutely is, because in their general rule is you might live beyond when the policy would end, which would mean that you wouldn’t be eligible to make the claim, which I know some people won’t like the sound of that, but ultimately, what we do need to be very clear about is that this is a contract, and it is for a certain period of time, and the insurers are pricing the insurance and what you have paid based upon those specific criteria and statistics of that timeframe that’s been chosen for how long the policy would last, so different mr. With Guardian is, is that we do have the enhanced terminal illness, which is stage four cancer. You’ve been diagnosed with it, they’re paying out on the terminal illness. They have brought in their essentials plan, which is a cheaper product that has a terminal illness definition that matches the rest of the market. So, just also be very mindful when you, if you’re an advisor, when you are quoting, or when you’re applying for these policies, that you don’t want to get that the wrong way around.

Kathryn Knowles 19:24

You don’t want to tell someone they’re getting this enhanced terminal illness definition, and actually you’ve done them the essentials plan, because that wouldn’t be a positive if there, unfortunately, was a claim. That kind of a regard have automatic waiver premium, which is brilliant. So, yeah, just a really easy example here. Somebody’s had a heart attack. Every other insurer pretty much is going to say no to way of a premium. If they are covered by Guardian, they will automatically have waiver premium to the policy, which is a big positive for using them. They have as well. So, this is where I’m going to talk a little bit on the critical illness cover and. And so just Guardian and another insurer, which I’ll mention later, have a specific definition for heart attack in a critical illness. Now, heart attacks, what happens is, is obviously people have a heart attack, but there is a specific measure in their blood called the troponin level, and it needs to reach a certain level for it to trigger, in a sense, a claim on a critical illness policy, so you might have had a heart attack, but it needs to have reached a certain severity for the insurer to go, “Yes, that is absolutely a heart attack, and here’s your payout now. Guardian don’t have that rule, so their rule is, if you’ve been told you’ve had a heart attack, then we’re going to pay out, which again is a really, really big positive for using their contract. You do have as well regarding their dual cover, so you can apply for joint cover, but you are actually, they will do it so that each person has their individual cover, and that sounds strange, but it’s basically it is joint cover that’s built from two single policies and combined into one joint one. You tend to find that it’s a little bit more expensive than doing joint cover in general with other providers, but it would be cheaper than doing two single policies generally with another advisors. Sorry, other insurers, now lots of factors in there, in terms of like risks and different things like that, that can alter premiums, and you might want to put one person with one insurer, one person with another, but if you just had some very straightforward applications, you will typically find that I say it is cheaper than doing two individuals, and there are a lot of arguments for doing individual policies, especially if you have critical illness cover attached, just to make sure that both parties do have good protection in place. You can also, a guardian, add children’s critical illness cover to the adult policies for life insurance only, and income protection only, either. And you can kind of, you can choose how much you want to add on as well, which is a really big one, really, really big positive. Right, next one we have a show called Hive, and so that is H I V E. Now they are a more specialist provider that isn’t always available to all brokers in the market, it just depends upon permissions, networks, what they allow, and, but you know, certainly reach out to them and see if there’s something that you know you can speak to, either ask your network or speak to them, DA, and if you’re directly offline. Sorry, so with Hive, what you can do is up to 100,000 pounds worth of life insurance, or up to, sorry, and up to 50,000 pounds worth of cancer cash cover for people, and again, it’s all non-medically underwritten, so you can just take it out straight away. Now, it, you do have to be very, very clear. Obviously, there are some specific exclusions here. It isn’t sort of the most expensive policy in the world, or anything like that, but you do just need to be very, very mindful as to sort of what is going to be offered here versus another policy.

Kathryn Knowles 23:09

So, the fact that is non-medically underwritten does mean that there, it’s priced a little bit more because of the fact that they don’t really know what they’re taking on, but you know, ultimately it is not medically underwritten at the point of application, but medically underwritten at point of claim, so it does exclude claims for pre-existing conditions, and some people might choose to put this in places like a bit of a temporary cover, whilst maybe some outstanding tests are being done, or different things like that, or it might just be that it’s a really, really good option for your client, anyway. So you can’t take out the cancer cash policy on its own, you have to take out the life insurance to get the cancer cash policy, but you can just have the life insurance, and the life insurance is either 50,000 75,000 or 100,000 that’s it, there’s no other options, and it is like an annually reviewable policy. Now, the cancer cash cover up to 50,000 and you can have that as long as you’ve not had cancer in the past. So, this can be a really, really good option for people who are being told that they can’t have critical illness cover due to a medical condition that isn’t cancer, and it gives them options to have that cancer cover. Now, you do to be able to access the cancer cash cover, you do need to be a non-smoker, so say non-smoker and no prior instances of cancer for yourself. Sometimes, as well, people can be quite interested in this, and let’s say if they want critical illness cover, and they can have it, but maybe there’s potentially some quite big exclusions based upon family medical history, so they sometimes would go, well, actually, I quite like the look of this, because for myself, I’ve not had cancer, and there’s no, there’s no medical history. Bit, so there’s no pre-existing exclusion for me, and there shouldn’t also be that exclusion there for the family history, so just a few different things to think about there, but obviously it is annually reviewable, and there are stages at certain ages where the summer showed can start to reduce and the premiums can start to go up, so it’s one of those ones again where you just really, really want to have a look at the terms and conditions and things like that to make sure you feel comfortable as to what is on offer there. So now to legal in general, so one of the only providers, one of two providers that offer executive income protection still, so that is income protection through a limited company, and the good thing about that is, is that you generally can ensure a higher sum assured than personal cover, you can cover national insurance contributions, you can cover pension contributions, which is obviously a good thing. There are sometimes some positives to doing personal cover rather than executive income protection. That’s not really what this episode is for, so I won’t go into it, and but it’s just that you know that obviously they do still offer that product, and it is worth potentially considering if you have a client that has their own limited company, paid for by the company, and offset against corporation tax, which is always going to be something that somebody who has a limited company be quite happy to be looking at, usually they are often very, very well priced. So, insurers do, they’re always trying to out price each other, and sometimes you look at it and you think seriously, stop making it cheaper and just, you know, do just do something else, which probably sounds terrible, because clients are obviously everybody wants everything as cheap as possible, but I’m kind of like, give the opinion of I would rather it not go cheaper, and I would rather service levels improve. I would rather more underwriters be, you know, obviously put into training and things like that. But I’m not saying that just about LNG, I’m just.. that’s just a general comment on the industry. So, LNG, I’m sorry if that sounded like it was throughout year, I’m just saying in general. But anyway, but they are very, very well priced. They do generally show up as one of the cheapest on the comparison sites for quite a lot of the policies.

Kathryn Knowles 27:07

They also have what’s known as their price match or price beta option, and that’s for the life, the Chris Collins, and the income protection, where you have reached a certain, you know, it’s not like the lowest summer shorts, but it’s not as high as you would necessarily expect, you know. But basically, if you’ve got LNG potentially in contention, you’ve got another insurer, and you think, well, LNG is looking quite good here for this, but they’re just a little bit out price wise compared to this one than six. Then, look, I’ve got the offer here, I could get it here for this much with this insurer, can you match it? And they can potentially do that, the other thing, and I was doing some pairing, Alan saw me making notes, and I’ve written chef’s kiss on this, and he had no idea what I was on about, so as far as I’m concerned, he’s really old, and clearly I am the hip one with the social media down with the kids, so that online trust is amazing, whether or not, it’s personal or business, it is so easy to use, so straightforward, it is just there, it is just done, and it’s again, other insurers, please just look at what Alan G do in terms of their trusts, it is, it is really, really good for us as advisors, and the fact as well that we can go in at any point before the application submitted, get it sorted, but they also now do the online trust for new and existing policies. The existing policies thing is a huge, huge thing for us as advisors, and I know that you know it is an extra facility for insurers to do, but LNG has figured it out, so everyone else can, as far as I’m concerned, but if it saves us having to like bother you with paper apps and things like that, and paper, sorry, paper trust afterwards. Definitely invest in it, and you know it is something that from a consumer duty perspective. As advisors, if we know that we’ve got for reviewing a client and it’s not in trust, then we really, really should be looking at that, so Right, we then also have LV, so LV are the other exec income protection provider, so I won’t go into that again, because I’ve literally just said that over the energy side of things, but it is just worthwhile to know that they do it too. They are also now the only provider who will offer a true gift into VVOS policy, so other insurers might say they’ve got gift into VVOS solutions, which is absolutely fine, but it’s not actually a gift into VVOS, so gift into VOS automatically will do the tapering that is needed as the certified the tax that would be due in the inheritance tax that we do on a gift over a seven year time period, and there are some additional protections in there because of the fact that it is a gift into VOS policy, now with other insurers, when we’re talking about gift into VVOS solutions, what that is, and I’ve done this before in previous podcasts, and I, the last one I did, the one, the episode before this, when I sort of said, think outside the box, I did talk about the three different ways that you can potentially protect against the gift, but essentially with other ones, gifting Vivek solution, you essentially do five policies, each at 20% value of the 40% tax that would be due on a gift. So, I’m not going to go into that too much, but just so you know, LV do do it. It doesn’t often show up in a lot of your usual comparisons websites, so you probably need to just go direct to them and see what that pricing looks like. Other things with LV, their income protection automatically includes fracture cover, so that would be a cash payment on top of the monthly benefit in terms of certain fractures, and they also have, as well, some child’s cover in the income protection, so basically, if the child is diagnosed or undergoes treatment for certain conditions or procedures, and you need to take time off work, LV will, will, sorry, pay you your monthly benefits as if you were the one that was ill and unable.

Kathryn Knowles 34:59

To work, because they’re basically saying, like I was mentioning before, the options of like adding on critical illness cover and things, but with LV, what they’re saying is, is that if your child is in any of these situations, you’re not going to be at work, and yes, it’s not you that’s not me being able to work, but it is a health factor, and we want to make sure that you are financially secure at that moment when clearly your work will be the last thing in your mind, so that’s a really, really nice extra that they have with their policy. MetLife, MetLife are a whole bundle of unique products, so we do have their Everyday Protect plan, which is where you can buy a certain amount of units of cover, and you are covering lots of accidental situations, so it can be accidental blindness, accidental loss of a limb, accidental total permanent disability, accidental death. It’s an accidental plan, and you can also bolt on things in terms of some sport situations, some situations that would happen may happen more likely in like a healthcare environment, and so it’s, it’s definitely worth having a look at. It there isn’t really a comparison for anything else in the market, so it’s not like an either or situation. It’s kind of like it’s a supplement, it’s an extra. It does come with some additional things, though, that are really, really useful, which is that once the policy has been in place for a 12 month period, it will, so it has a cash benefit, basically. If you go into hospital for every night you spend in hospital, up to a certain amount of nights, it will pay you a cash payout for each night. Now, for the first 12 months, that only covers accidental situations. After the first 12 months, it also covers pre-existing conditions, which can be incredibly useful for some people. Sorry, excuse me, some people with certain medical conditions as well might see that as pretty much being almost a no-brainer to set something like that up, it also comes with a certain amount of funeral cover after the first 12 months, which again can be, can be sort of like really, really useful in certain situations, and you know it’s definitely there are certain clients, certain client situations where this product absolutely stands out for us, and, and you know, it’s, it’s, it’s a good one, and there’s, there’s obviously UK value added benefits, and things like that as well. They also have the child’s cover as well, where you can ensure the, again, accidents, because you okay, so you can put accidental stuff for your children on the everyday protect products, as well as yourself, but then they have a separate just child policy, where again, just like maybe the adult doesn’t want to take it out of themselves, but they want the child to have it, so it does cover things like I say, broken bones, there is some cancer, visit cancer cover in that too, and, and what’s really, really good, just in case anybody was wondering, this when it first launched, I was very kind of like, oh, this sounds good, but what about this situation? So, what I would say is that there has been lots of caveats, obviously, in there to make sure that there is, there’s almost like a level of safeguarding as well, sort of like in the line of, well, there are certain situations where this will and won’t pay out, so if anybody was thinking of doing stuff that they shouldn’t be doing, that’s not going to end up with a kind of financial reward at all, which is obviously very positive, and I was, I was really, really pleased to see that MetLife had had the, the forethought and sort of like that understanding of making sure that they’re doing is to protect children, but there was an extra element of protecting children in there too. There was also the Mortgage Safe product that they have, which is a short-term income protection plan. It is specifically for mortgage repayments, so we’re not talking about the income, we are talking about what that person’s mortgage repayment is.

Kathryn Knowles 39:04

There’s only five medical questions, so it can be a really, really good route to supporting people as well, depending upon their circumstances, but because it’s also just covering the mortgage payments as well, and that it can mean that it’s obviously very, very cost-effective. Another thing, if you are doing income protection, it’s just a little tidbit in terms of the building resilient households initiatives and different things that were done. There is, it is worthwhile if you are doing your recommendation reports to include a caveat in there that obviously these policies are being set up specifically for mortgage to help pay off the mortgage, I mean, this this product with MetLife is literally that is what it does, it says it on the tin, and the reason for that is that if say someone is ill and they are starting to claim on income protection policy, the amount that is getting paid to them could potentially alter what they can access in terms of stay. Benefits, if it’s means tested, so if we are very, very clear that you know these policies are being done to cover mortgage repayments, there is the potential that it could be ignored when the state benefit assessments are being done. Right now, onto national friendly, really good underwriting with national friendly, have to say it’s very, very bespoke, won’t say no straight away, like a lot of other firms, and so really, really worthwhile having a good chat to them. It’s generally that’s a good thing to do with all the friendlies, is that they do tend to be very, very open to different things. They do offer an accident-only income protection option, so again, some people might not. If you give them the income protection policy that covers everything, they might say, “Look, that is just really, really not inside my budget at all. The accident-only IP option is incredibly affordable. Better for them to walk away with that than to walk away with nothing. So, I would seriously suggest looking at that too. They also have a specific product called the Friendly Shield cover, and it covers things like a bit of hospitalization benefit, but essentially it offers like a three month accident and sickness policy up to just a little over 2000 pounds per month. Okay, and what happens is it sort of like from day 14, if this person is, you know, is ill, has been an accident, they’re sick, they can’t work. It would potentially pay out for that first three months. This can work incredibly well for people who are self-employed, who have, they don’t have statutory sick pay to step to sit back on. But again, you can possibly, and I mentioned this in the last episode, again, about layering IP policies, you could potentially layer the policy, so you could put something like this in place, so that first three months, and then you could then do a three month deferred period on a longer term claim income protection policy. I know it’s obviously doing lots and lots of different things, and people might not want that, they might feel it’s a bit messy, but ultimately it can make things really affordable, and there is definitely a need in the market for that kind of an option, though income protection as well. National friend, you can pay more to cover some hazard sports, which is a good thing, because not everybody wants it, so they don’t necessarily want everyone to be paying for it, but then the people who want to pay for it can do, and we do have one family next, oh, sorry, I forgot to say national friendly, they do guaranteed whole of life over 50s cover, so again that can really, really work well with people who are over the age of 50, and maybe there is something in terms of their medical history or other situations where they’re not able to obviously get cover like the hall of life through the mainstream providers, um, one family again, we’ve got a guaranteed hall of life over 50s plan. What I would say as well with the over 50s plans is there is absolutely a time and place for them.

Kathryn Knowles 42:53

They do work differently depending upon who they are in terms of the insurer, so some of them will have, there’s always like an initial moratorium period, anywhere up to two years, depending upon the insurer, where for that period it is more of an accidental death policy, and then after that period it becomes covering any situation. The premiums can be treated differently between the different insurers. Some would say, well, once you reach the age of 90, the policy stays active, but you don’t need to keep paying. Others will say no, you’re just going to keep paying, and different amounts in terms of what would happen if, say, like the person were to pass due to a pre-existing condition in that initial moratorium period. There’s usually at least a refund of premiums, and then some additional funds on top, but each insurer does that slightly differently, so anyway, back to one family. So just launched to the wider sort of industry has been with some brokers for a while, but they have now launched Beagle Street Life and Critical Illness cover under One Family to the IFA Market, and it does seem to be quite well priced, but it is pretty new, so I’m not going to be able to comment too much on how they are comparing to everybody else, but it’s certainly an extra person to be looking at, which is always good, and we are getting there, don’t worry, just a few more insurers to go through, so Pulse is a very specialist insurer that can be used. It does really, really depend upon your permissions, obviously, whether or not it’s a network directly authorized. Directly authorized, what I would say is, is that if you are looking at somebody like Pulse, absolutely look at them, but what you need to be mindful of is that they are what’s known as a non-admitted policy, so you must check with your professional indemnity insurer if you have the authorizations to advise on a non-admitted policy. Pulse can do a lot of magic where you’ve exhausted, especially every single other option, and that’s not to say that you know I’m. Saying, oh, well, only girl, pulse is the last option. The reason that I would be saying that you probably look at other options first is that pulse can look at things and really, really look at things that no one else will look at. They are brilliant in that way, whether or not that’s health, travel, sometimes the occupations, they will do huge amounts, and they really go out of their way as well to try and help, but what the reason I would say that I would generally, I often look smiles, is because it’s for client need, because with Pulse it’s a maximum 10 year policy, they’re not going to be doing more than that. There is also, as well, where there’s certain maximum some assureds with the policies, so you just want to be mindful of that, because obviously, if you’ve got a client with a 27 year mortgage, you’re going to look at other places first where they’re going to offer 27 years. It might be due to the risks that you end up going somewhere like Pulse, and with that 10 year policy, but from an advice point of view, you would need to exhaust the 27 year options first. We do use Pulse at Cura, so obviously happy to give people insight into that as well. I have to say I’m saying we use Pulse. I was going to say I’ve said that specifically, we use all of these people and more that I’m mentioning today, but I just thought that they were worthwhile for people to hear about Roy London next. So we’ve got a few things with Roy London, they’re one of the ones that have quite a few in the list of standouts. So we do have, and I’ve mentioned before, their mental health life insurance route. So what that means is basically there is there’s a handful of firms in the UK that are approved to offer their mental health route, and essentially it’s for people who can’t get insurance with other mainstream insurers or even with Royal London through usual routes because of their mental health history.

Kathryn Knowles 46:50

Now, the general kind of caveats with the Royal London mental health route are that it must be there must be at least 12 months of stability, that’s what they’re really looking for, that there’s been no attempts, there’s been no self-harm, there’s been no significant and changes in terms of, you know, if there’d been a certain medication change in a specific, you know, big increase in the last two months, that would, that wants to probably see a bit more time just to double check that everything is is feeling okay, you know. No certain, like, suddenly they’ve not been able to work for the last four months due to their mental health, things like that. There can also be, as well, some caveats in terms of if in the past there’s been any sort of significant involvement with drugs or alcohol as well. But essentially, what they can do with that policy through a handful of firms, including ourselves, is be able to offer life insurance with a permanent self-harm and suicide exclusion, and what can work quite well there is that, and I sound strange, but it might be if you’re not one of the handful of firms who can use this route, it might be that you have tried Roy London, have been declined, but actually, if you came selected or one of the other firms that can use it, we might be able to get the insurance, but with this permanent exclusion. It is just that there are specific rules, specific permissions that have been put in place to allow this, and you know that’s why we’re able to do it. In terms of joint life, second death insurances, they do have the highest acceptance age going into the 80s for being able to consider these insurances. What I would say, if somebody is in their 80s, generally it is not going to be a cheap policy, and it is important to be aware of that. We are seeing so many more people come for insurance now, especially since the pensions changes have been announced for next year. A lot more people are going into inheritance tax levels now, with the pensions being included. So, so many more questions and requests for it. People at that age, as a starting point, it isn’t often generally cheap, because very naturally they tend to be needing higher sum assured, because they are at that level of wealth, they are that age, so we’re getting a closer amount of time that the insurer has, you know, the insurer is going to have a less amount of time to have premiums collected rather than it just being sort of like collected over a 3040 year period. The other thing, as well, is that people, especially in the 80s, do tend to start to have some health factors that can potentially alter the options for insurance, so just bear all that in mind, but it’s always worth asking. They do have that underwrite later option as well, where you can start a policy, the person is insured, and then they literally, it is what it says, they will underwrite it later within a certain time period, obviously, and from that underwriting, it might be the standard terms offered. It might be rated, at which point they’ll say, “If you want this policy at this level, then you can, but the premium is now this, and you need to kind of pay us the bit that you haven’t paid so far, or it might be that it’s declined, at which point the policy would wouldn’t be going ahead. It so that can work really, really well, especially if you’re on tight timelines for certain things, especially things like business loans and stuff like that, where people need to have things in place, and unfortunately, sometimes by the time the protection specialist is brought in, it’s actually very, very tight in terms of the turnarounds for things, and you do have reviewable premiums for whole of life with Roy London. Now, this is this proves quite interesting, because in general, I would say to people, guaranteed premiums are usually the way to go, because you don’t want to.

Kathryn Knowles 50:35

I tend to have a lot of people brought to me from I phase, where they have set up reviewable premium whole of life policies years ago, so they’re now going into their 60s, 70s to set these policies up 3040 years ago, and they were really, really cheap all that time ago, which was fantastic. And then now they’re getting to the point where it’s getting more expensive, and actually quite a lot of the time it’s for the amount of insurance, it still isn’t that expensive, but it is very expensive compared to what they’ve been paying so far, and you do tend to find with reviewable premiums that it does get to a point where they do become just completely unaffordable when people get into their 80s, let alone the 90s. Absolutely, you know, usually going into 1000s of pounds per month for these insurances, and ultimately the policy needs to be canceled, and so the entire plan around mitigating generally it’s usually about IHT risk just falls apart. So I generally say guaranteed it’s a, it’s a bitter pill to swallow, they would say, in terms of the price between a guaranteed versus a reviewable premium now, but in the long run generally it is much, much better, but this is another reason why it is so much better to be talking about these potential. Do we think this person might be in IHT levels by the time they reach XYZ age? Because if they are, we want to try and lock in some cheap cover now while they’re younger. I say all that now. I actually am seeing quite a lot of interest in the reviewable premiums, and there was somebody recently where I was just like, “Look, I always do guaranteed, but I’m looking at that, you might, you need to do reviewable, absolutely do reviewable, because this is just silly, that you know, in a sense, the price difference, and to working, obviously not myself, but obviously working with I phase with their clients to go, let’s put reviewable premiums in place. Now we know in year 10 the premiums are going to start going up, and then every five years after, so for at least the next 10 years start to do aggressive gifting, and then you’ve got you’ve got your seven year gift period for the tax within this 10 years. So we know the premiums are going to stay low for the next 10 years with doing this gifting, obviously, within reason to not cause any issues to the person, their ability to just have like a comfortable life now, but then it means at the 10 year period that the policy might not even need it anymore, or it might be that we can say, yeah, okay, we’ve done all this and we’ve done that, so actually we can reduce the summer showed to this much, and then we’ll see what the premium looks like, then yes, it’ll be reviewable still, but at least the summer shows drop down, and then we can carry on, possibly with that gifting side of things. There is also, as well, at some points where, in terms of the reviewable versus guaranteed premiums, and with some people with their level of wealth, actually paying the guaranteed premium can seem very frustrating, but actually all it’s doing is helping to mitigate the IHT risk. It’s not actually really tapping away at any of their wealth. It is just, you know, instead of it just keeping to grow and grow and grow, and the IHT was getting higher and higher and higher. The premium being paid is just keeping everything at kind of like a nice maintenance level, other things of why London, so with their critical illness cover, you can add on specifically like a pregnancy complication specific extra, which is a really nice thing to add on, because obviously things can go wrong during pregnancy, and whether or not that is obviously that a lot of insurers do offer certain things in terms of certain conditions that might develop while with a baby that’s like maybe a genetic, I mean, obviously from before birth, and that can sometimes be covered in critical illness policies.

Kathryn Knowles 54:15

There are other pregnancy-related complications that aren’t necessarily covered by critical illness policies, and the Royal London policy does obviously add in that extra potential to help there, and with Royal London, I wonder if I forgot to say this about LV. I think I forgot to say something about LV. Yes, I did. How naughty of me. Going back to LV for a second, and I’ll come back to Roy London. So LV can sometimes cover non-UK residents who are working for UK companies, so do bear that in mind. They would need to be working for a UK company with a UK contract, so that is something. So, back to Royal London, because that is something that is sort of like in a similar vein, but this isn’t necessarily. Company dependent, but Roy London can sometimes consider a life of another policy for non-UK residents, so be owned by a UK-assured is not for an IHT liability, though. So, I had a good example of this not long ago, where there was a family, the wife and son lived in the UK, there was a UK mortgage liability, the husband lived in, I believe it was Saudi Arabia, and so what we were able to do is ensure the husband, who was non-UK residents in Saudi Arabia, to cover the mortgage, but the wife set it up as a life of another, which was a really, really good outcome for them, and Roy London also, as well, do have a specific diabetes life insurance product that might be of interest. Okay, getting on to the last few now. Okay, so we now have Shepherd’s Friendly again. They have a guaranteed whole of life over 50s plan, and they do have a simplified income protection policy with that two year claim period. With the simplified income protection policies that you get with any of the friendlies, it’s just a really good idea to familiarize yourself with their questions, find out right. Well, what do they ask, what don’t they ask, and making a note of sort of like this is where they really stand out in terms of clients with xyz situations. Scottish Widows going to chat about now. What I quite like about Scottish Widows is their critical illness contract, and the reason I like it is because it’s very nice and straightforward when we look at critical illness comparisons, which I’m sure most people get this. There is just an ending, unending line of extras. We’ve got core, we’ve got core with kids, we’ve got enhanced, we’ve got enhanced with kids, we then obviously potentially have pregnancy cover on, you know, there’s so many different things, and I like Scottish Widows because it’s a case if they go look, here’s our Chris, here’s our Chris Colonel’s contract, kids covers included, in case you want it, if you don’t want it, then photos, but here it is, and I just, I like that. I feel like with a lot of others it gets very, very complicated. It can get incredibly complicated in others as well, depending upon certain risks. As an example, I think I’ve mentioned it before on a podcast, but let’s say somebody has something like ulcerative colitis. Well, you might recommend an insurer go for the car contract, and they’re like, brilliant, but then you think, oh, by the way, there’s an enhanced one. Do you want to have a look at the enhanced? Oh, yeah, I’ll pay that. I’ll pay that extra, but then you find out, oh, well, actually, ulcerative colitis is covered on the enhanced, but it’s not covered on the core. So now I’ve done enhanced, they’ve got an exclusion for ulcerative colitis, whereas if I’d gone core, there wouldn’t be an exclusion, and yes, there is the argument, well, enhanced is enhanced, so that’s better, but with that ulcerative colitis exclusion, I don’t know how far breaching that goes. Does it affect any of the other enhanced ones by a certain route or certain back loop or anything? I just don’t know, so and also, as well, it’s that negative psychology of it, isn’t it? If so, like, well, there’s an exclusion on there.

Kathryn Knowles 57:58

If you don’t have an exclusion versus an exclusion, it’s, you know, there’s quite a difference in terms of how you’re feeling, and so it’s certainly worthwhile, I think, looking at Scottish Riddlers, they see, because they just do it as like a core one, it is, it is one of the cheapest ones out there as well, and there’s arguments for all of them, but I do like that, that’s my stand up for Scottish Widows. The other thing with them, and I should mention this for the other insurers as well, is that they do do the beneficiary nomination now, which is really, really useful, because I’m just going to put it out there. Scottish Widows, the trust system, the online trust system is not, is not good. So the beneficiary nomination is wonderful. Also, extra Royal London and Guardian all offer that too. Royal London, make sure you do it at the very beginning when you are doing the app, because if you don’t do it, then you’re not going to get chance to do it again. Guardian and extra Scottish Widows, we can bring it in at any point. There are situations where beneficiary nomination isn’t possible because the client’s needs are too complex, and you do need to have a trust, but it works really, really well in a lot of situations, and considering that a lot of people, especially if, if it’s too much for you as an advisor, resource wise, to do a trust, or you have to send it out to the client again because of resources, and you’re not getting a good return, then the beneficiary nomination is perfect, because it’s literally there in the app, it says, give me a name, tell me the percentage, and you’re done. It’s really, really not that hard to do. Okay, three more to go. So, Vitality Life, we have this serious illness cover, which is an obvious standout. It’s completely different to every other product in the markets, it isn’t critical illness cover, it is covering usually the same conditions, probably more conditions, and it does pay out on a severity-based scale, and so you can get lots more of like the partial payments in a sense, rather than just doing the full shebang, you do also. Have their multiplier, so you can take out their serious illness cover as like times one, times two, times three. If you take times two, then that means essentially you’re getting double the chance of making a claim. So you could claim once, and then you’d still have the same amount of cover there to claim a second time, and then obviously the third time would be three times you can do that, which is is good, you then have the optimizer, which is where people can get cheaper premiums if they are fit and healthy, they can access a lot of benefits with that, and I’ve got a little tidbit for that, because I have to say I’ve had the optimizer plan for many, many a year, and I know this won’t go down greatly, but it was an absolute pain in my backside for a very, very long time. I’m sorry, Vitality, but it was, and the reason it was is because I’ve had children while I have done the Vitality Optimizer, and you know what, because one of the things is about recording your exercise levels and being able to score points with exercise levels with how many steps you do each day, and other types of exercise as well, in terms of your heart rate level, and things like that. And I’m really annoyed at myself that I didn’t figure this out sooner, but anyway, the reason it’s been a pain in my backside is that when you wear your Apple Watch on your wrist and you push a pram, it records zero steps, so as I’m sure a lot of people with children will have realized, when you are shattered, and for me, when I was breastfeeding all the time, and everything absolutely knocked it out of my mind, walking for hours just to make sure they slept, and would come in and be like, you’ve not done any steps, you can imagine my choice words at my watch, and honestly, as well, at Vitality, and I even contact Vitality, I said, “What can I do?

Kathryn Knowles 1:01:41

And they were like, “Well, literally nothing, you know, it’s just really recording steps, that’s it. That wonderful, thank you. So now I have come up with a solution, and it’s helped me in a number of different ways. So I now wear my Apple Watch around my ankle, and because I’ve, as well, generally I don’t push prams now, but I’m also not an arm walker, which I know probably sounds strange, but I don’t move my arms as much as other people, so it generally isn’t measuring my steps, but obviously if I’m moving my legs, yeah, so I wear it on my ankle, so now I look like I’m tagged, generally, which in the winter it doesn’t cause an issue, because my boots cover it, in the summer people are looking at me and are staying away, I see this as a win-win, because one, I’m getting my steps, two people aren’t bothering me. So, there we go, done and dusted, very happy. And actually, I went, and a few weeks ago, had to go get a breast dump checked out, and everything was fine, don’t worry. And I was said something to one of the people there, she was like, do you know what? She was just like, the surgeons tend to have them around their ankles too, and what someone’s got them around is, is what’s it called, is bicep, and I was just like, oh, right, okay, so I’m not the only one that’s coming up with unique ways, I mean, sometimes I will say what I do is I like tie it to the to the laces on my shoe and things like that, and, but, yeah, and also, as well, the other thing that really ticks me off is that if I’m in the gym, it doesn’t, and I’m doing weight lifting, it doesn’t record that I’ve exercised, which really annoys me, really really annoys me, because that’s all to do with your heart rate levels, I know it’s one of those things, and you know, the other thing that just bear in mind is that I live in the back end of nowhere, so I can’t access any of the benefits that come with it. So, do bear in mind, if you are advising your client on this, it is an absolutely brilliant thing. I, my insurances are very, very cheap, because even though I say all this, I’ve managed to get what’s known as the platinum level and keep my premiums down. It can work phenomenally, and you know, for people who are very, very fit and active, it works very, very well, but they might just need to take certain steps, because if not, you might have some people grumbling at you at the anniversary of the premiums have gone up. Okay, another thing of vitality life: heart attack definition. They also say if you’ve had a heart attack, don’t care about the troponin levels we’re paying out, which is brilliant. Extras that they offer, they do dementia and frail care cover, which continues after the policy has ended. I don’t have time to go through all the details of that, but it is something that is a good extra to be mindful of, especially seeing as though things like dementia are, you know, it’s even more and more that things are happening and occurring. So, definitely worth having a consideration for. Again, you can also add the children’s critical illness cover to their life insurance only, or income protection plans, and they are currently the only provider that offer a five year deferred period on income protection. So, when we’re looking at those other ones as well, where we’re saying maybe a two year claim, which a lot of insurers offer, or this, which is a five year, which is just what Vitality offer, we are seeing more firms offering grouping protection to their employees, but maybe with a capped period, like a two year or five year cap period. Now that presents an issue a lot of the time when it comes to arranging new income protection, because obviously insurers won’t, they won’t want to set up an income protection. Policy for somebody who’s already got income protection somewhere else, so use these ones where you’re seeing the two year claim periods to complement those sick pay from work, and especially that five year one as well.

Kathryn Knowles 1:05:13

Just two more providers now, so Unum Group Income Protection. What is good about Unum is that they will pay directly, pay the claim directly to the employee, so it doesn’t have to go to the employer. Now you can potentially get that with other insurers, but you have to go through a debate cycle, you have to prove why that would be necessary, and things like that. This way it goes direct to the employee, which can say work much nicer for the employee, because it’s not then a constant reminder that they’re no longer in a sense at work if they’re having to have communications from their old employer. If the employer does need to medically retire the person, it makes it much more straightforward, so it gives a bit of extra protection for the company if you are able to have that facility, so as in the company, as in, like, the employer by having that facility in place, and then the last one is uric, so we do have these uric accelerate, which is similar to Aviva’s Global Treatments, it’s a newer version, is in, like, it’s only been around a little while, maybe I think, is it one or two years now, and so that does very, very similar, and you know, they’ll take you abroad, they’ll pay for your treatment, they’ll bring you back, they’ll carry on paying for some treatment here, but they also do, I believe it’s genetic sequencing of, say, cancer, if you are diagnosed with that, so then you can have targeted treatments to obviously address the cancer much more easily, and hopefully destroy it in a sense in a much more effective way. You can, as well, with Zurich again, do the additional pregnancy cover for their critical illness contract, and can also again add the critical illness cover for children to their life insurance and income protection only plans. I also have just had a very, very vague memory of something coming through where with Zurich, if children are covered on the policies, then when they do turn certain ages, they can then set up their own policy with much, much easier eligibility criteria and acceptance rates than if they were to just try and apply themselves, so that’s a good thing too. So hopefully that’s given you some insights into some of the more different things that insurers are doing. I know I’ve not covered everything before insurers say anything, I’ve definitely not covered everything over. I’ve definitely not covered every insurer. What I’m saying here is those – these are the things that if a client comes to me and I have a completely start blank starting point as to what I’m doing, these are the kind of things, depending upon the client situation, that make me sort of do like a little alarm bell, little light bulb moment to go. That insurer might be the one here, it is always, it is much more than price, sometimes it is price, but there is a lot more to it at times than that, and, and, yeah, hopefully this has been helpful. So, thank you very much for listening, everybody. And I keep saying, next time Alan be back with me, I’m going to say it again, and hopefully surprise you all by actually having him with me next time, but please visit the website Practical Hyphen protection.co.uk to access more episodes and to access your CPD certificates. Thank you to our sponsors, Planner X. Bye, everybody.

1:08:33

Bye.

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